Note: the forum on this site has now been reactivated. It is not a free site and you will find a great deal of pressure to buy products in addition to paying a monthly access fee. The site is still active for shilling EFT, DVDs and pamphlets and the book that was written using the pain of the members of the forum for profit. If you think you can get healing from a person who shamelessly and heartlessly exploits the suffering of others for gain, it is your right to try. Just please be aware that others who have tried came away more hurt than when they began.
When you first go searching for information about your crazy mother, you input a lot of different search criteria. Eventually, if you search long enough and hard enough, you come across a site called DaughtersofNarcissisticMothers.com run by a woman calling herself Danu Morrigan. “Ahhhh,” you sigh after reading a few articles. “I’ve found a home!”
Like hundreds of other DoNMs (daughters of narcissistic mothers) before you, the site seems a godsend, a place where not only do they seem to understand what your crazy mother is like, but they seem to have honest-to-goodness empathy for the confusion, frustration, and just plain craziness that seems to go with having to deal with your mother. It’s like the Gods of the Internet were reading your mind and have blessed you with the information you have been seeking for so long!
You’ve heard the expression “If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is,” right? Well this website is that expression come to life...it is too good to be true and I have the bitter experience to tell you why. Lest you think mine is just a case of sour grapes, at the end of this page I am posting a list of links where you can go to read about the sad, bitter betrayal received by other victims of this site at the hands of the supposedly empathetic site manager and founder, “Danu Morrigan.”
Let’s start with some truth here: the site is run by a woman named Tracy Culleton and it is owned by her husband, Peter Harris, who owns an internet portal site and who designs and manages websites for a living. Contrary to the sad face Tracy wears on the site, she is actually an internet entrepreneur with many, many lucrative irons in the fire. Overarching all of her sites, however, is a thing called Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT or “tapping”) which she offers…for a substantial fee, of course…to everyone who reads any of her websites. It doesn’t matter what kind of trauma you suffer from, Tracy wants you to believe she can EFT you to emotional health, and that you need her services, no matter the cost. (Tracy is in Ireland—you have to pay for an overseas call for 30 minutes or more plus hundreds of dollars for each session!)
There is no bonafide, independent study ever done that indicates any effectiveness for EFT, only testimonials (anecdotal evidence) that people have given her that she displays on her site. Two years ago I contacted one of the writers of a testimonial (I don’t know if it is still running today) and this person told me a horror story that gave me the willies. Emotionally fragile, she succumbed to Tracy’s blandishments for EFT and Tracy’s pressure to write a testimonial. After a couple of sessions she had a severely traumatic reaction to Tracy’s probing and pushing. Given that Tracy was in Ireland and this woman was on America’s West Coast, there was no way Tracy could take appropriate palliative steps and the woman went into an emotional tailspin. She subsequently asked Tracy to take down her testimonial and not only did Tracy refuse, she posted the testimonial on a second site, this time using the woman’s full name (which is how I was able to track the poor woman down)!! Interestingly, there is nothing on any of Tracy’s sites that indicates you can get instructions on the internet on how to do EFT by yourself…for free!
So, Tracy is marketing an unproven therapy, she is not licensed to do therapies of any kind and is not educated beyond high school, and she is charging hundred of dollars for an unproved technique you can learn to do yourself for free by Googling “Emotional Freedom Technique.” And she is not just pushing it on her DoNM site, either—she has additional web pages that are dedicated to other emotionally traumatic issues, like a fear of clowns (no kidding!). She also flogs EFT on the web for being bullied, for lack of confidence and for, of all things, writer’s block.
Some years ago Tracy entered a writing contest in her native Ireland and won. The prize was a three-book deal with the small local publisher that ran the contest. The first book hit “best seller” status in her tiny Irish market but is largely unheard of outside Ireland. Reviews are not stellar and her next two novels (the ones she wrote after she fulfilled the three book deal) have been unable to find a publisher, not even the publisher whose contest she won. Despite her dismal showing as a writer, however, Tracy markets herself on the internet as a “best selling author” and holds writing seminars to teach other people how to write. Not only does she site these seminars in exotic locations and charge exorbitant fees, she also touts EFT on her writing websites as a way around writer’s block and a host of other writing-related ills. The last advert I saw for one of her writing seminars, it was being held on a Greek island, the course was a week long, and the cost was £900 (British). At that rate (and the ad said the classes were morning only), Tracy has managed to find a way to fund exotic vacations with other people’s money. Oh, you think she worked up the course all on her own and deserves the largesse? Nope—she copied the course from Rob Parnell’s “Easy Way to Write” course, which I was able to buy on the internet for $27 US at the same time she was advertising this seminar for £900.
As if this wasn’t all enough, Tracy also holds herself up to be a marketing guru and purports to teach people how to market themselves and/or their businesses on the internet. Here’s a site of hers in which she refers to the customers and clients as “food”! And if you think she has a softer, more compassionate attitude towards the women who join her DoNM website, think again—we are nothing more than a means to an end to her, a source of income, as evidenced by the conversation in this forum, which occurred in September of 2010: Warrior Forum.
Some of you may, at this point, be thinking “so what? The woman’s got to make a living. It’s a tough economy and she doesn’t exactly have sterling credentials to get her a cushy berth in some investment bank or anything, ya know?” Fair enough—but unfortunately, she does not conduct herself on her DoNM website with any more compassion and gentleness than you would expect of a woman who refers to her customers and clients as “food.”
In February of 2010 I was laid up with a broken foot, confined to bed, in my house in South Africa. At the same time my father, with whom I was close, was dying in a hospice in Oregon and I was unable to make the trip to see him. I was in contact with one of my sisters but he was too sick to speak with me on the phone when I called. I shared this information and my emotional vulnerability with the others on the forum: my worst fear was coming true, my beloved father was dying.
There is a women on the DoNM site, one of Tracy’s admins, who goes by the name of Light. (Her real name is Michelle Ede and her credentials do not exist—she is a female handyman and knows how to use Google very well—that’s it.) Michelle is responsible for posting a lot of the articles on the site—but not necessarily for writing them. If a keyword search is done on Google, many of the articles will be shown to be plagiarized from other sites. This is Michelle’s specialty—copying articles from other sites, then altering them to fit her perspective and beliefs…all without giving credit to the original authors. Michelle is also not above making stuff up—and that is how I got into trouble on the DoNM site.
I posted in the “My Story” section a carefully watered-down version of some of my NM’s violent actions against me. I got a warning from Michelle, saying it was “too graphic” and that it might “trigger” other members. I thought this was odd, since it wasn’t graphic at all and I thought it might elicit feelings of “Oh! I’m not alone!” from other members. Just a couple of days after my post was yanked (and the criticism of it also removed), Michelle put up a new article in which she alleged that if your mother was violent with you, she was not a narcissist, that narcissists are not violent, so if your mother was violent she's not a narcissist and you do not belong on a site for the daughters of narcissistic mothers. I was shocked, but before I could respond, another member stepped in.
Beccas12 is a highly credentialed psychologist with advanced degrees from UCLA and many years of clinical research practice. Becca was also raised by a severely N mother who was also a psychiatrist by profession (now that had to be a crazy-making upbringing!!) Becca responded to Michelle’s new article with gently-phrased corrections of Michelle’s misconception about narcissists and violence. Michelle’s response was to ban Becca from the board! (Fortunately Becca and I had privately exchanged email addresses—she lives in Europe—and we were able to discuss the situation outside of the forum.)
I wrote to Tracy in protest, telling her that I was sure Michelle was mistaken because of Becca’s credentials and Tracy said I had a good point, she was going to speak to Michelle, and she would get back to me. Before the day was out I, too, had been banned! No explanation, no recourse, and, shockingly, nothing was ever announced to the members. In fact, if you go to that site today and search on SweetViolet or Violet (I forget now what my name was there), you will undoubtedly find my old posts, including the ones about my dying father.
Tracy and Michelle were well aware that my father was dying and, in fact, he died two days after I was banned. I had a broken foot and was bedridden, emotionally vulnerable, and without a second’s thought, they pulled the rug out from under me, leaving me unable to contact those women with whom I had made supportive friendships on the forum. Only Becca was there, and she was fighting her own battles with her nasty narcissistic mother at that time.
It wouldn’t be so bad if I was the only one this happened to, but apparently it is a standard practice for Tracy and Michelle to summarily ban people with no appeal and no explanation. The tenor of the forum is such that you walk on eggshells, never knowing what you might say that will get you expelled and, once expelled, never knowing exactly why. They ban all mention of God or religion, even such innocuous things as suggesting books by Christian writers like H. Scott Peck (People of the Lie).
Tracy Culleton’s DoNM forum is a toxic place. The truth is not allowed there, nor are women who are on the road to healing who can help the more vulnerable sisters. That role belongs only to Tracy and you have to pay, pay, pay for her help via EFT. If you don’t believe me after what you have read here, Google “banned from DoNM” and you will get the following results, which are only the tip of the iceberg:
Freedom from Toxic People:1 (be sure scroll to the comments and in particular, Kate's comment)
Freedom from Toxic People:2
Words from the Daughter of a Narcissist
NOTE: I will no longer be publishing or responding to either email or comments asking me to justify this post. It has been privately brought to my attention that Michelle Ede (Light) and/or Tracy Culleton (Danu) could be attempting to get me to say something illegal in order to take some kind of legal action against this blog.
As in all posts on this blog, these are my opinions and feelings, often demonstrated through my own experiences, sometimes through the experiences of others. My experience with this site and the other site I warn against are based on personal experience. If you think you can get honesty and forthrightness from people from whom I suffered underhanded and devious experiences, it is your right to try. You are not obligated to believe anything related here, and you have every right to your own experiences. I posted this warning because I wished someone on the web had put up such a warning before I got involved and got hurt. Now the warning I wished for exists for others--you may heed it or ignore it as you wish.
Hi Violet--thank you for your efforts in putting this warning out there. I have posted the following message on another blog, but will post it here as well.
ReplyDeleteI can add my name to the list of those who've been banned from the DoNM forum. Fortunately, in my case, the upset was temporary and short-lived. I was there mainly to do some research on the topic of survivors of NPD. I had grown up with a narcissistic mother, but I discovered this long ago and had a lot of recovery already. So I was not overly attached to being on the forum. Nevertheless it was a rather shocking thing to be banned so abruptly. And then to learn that this was the fate of so many others.
One of the odd things that stood out most for me on this forum, for the month that I was there, was that the membership seemed to be lopsided in favor of those with only minimal or no recovery. Most support groups I have been in, or helped to facilitate during the days when I was doing some counseling work, included people at various stages of recovery. This would make for a more well-rounded group experience, and give the members a greater sense of freedom within the group, and less dependency on the facilitators. The kind of disproportionate membership I saw on on the DoNM forum now appears to me to be less of an accident and more like a prearranged agenda. It has given the ones in charge (the moderators) far too much power over their needy and vulnerable members, a power that they seem to revel in and abuse, without much discretion, concern, or empathy for the hurt they are causing.
I am glad to see people speaking out about this. I only wish there was a way to warn people BEFORE they ended up there.
Thank you for writing, Kalibiza.
DeleteSince you were in the group Tracy and Michelle (Danu and Light) have taken their abuses even futher: mental health professionals, if they join the group, may not reveal their status or give advice, meaning if Tracy and Michelle say things that are untrue or damaging to the members, the mental health professional must simply shut up and let the lie stand or risk being banned.
They now discourage members from joining outside support groups, most specifically FaceBook support groups. As I recall, this is one of the archetypal tricks of the abuser: isolate the victim and make her entirely emotionally dependent on the abuser.
Now, Tracy and Michelle have written books. Tracy's, written under her pseudonym Danu Morrigan and entitled "You're not crazy--it's your mother", will be released by Amazon today. One need not even wonder where she got her material--so much for confidentiality and privacy, eh?
Michelle's book, written under the pseudonym Drew Keys and titled "Narcissists exposed: 75 Things Narcissists Don't Want You to Know", was self published in April and is available on Amazon. I wonder how much crediblity people would give it if they knew it was written by a carpenter (that's her real job) who still lives with her mother (Google Michelle Ede in Amesbury, MA and note that she shares a residence with a 78-year-old woman with the same surname) and is not the NC DoNM she pretends to be! She has her own website these days--LightsHouse.org--just as bad as Tracy in her own way, spreading misinformation and now making money with it.
They are both nasty pieces of work but Tracy, I think, is the worst. Your observation about the population of the forum being heavily skewed towards the most needy and most fragile is something I and others have noticed as well--only the ones who are most vulnerable and therefore most likely to pony up cash for Tracy's snake oil business are allowed to stay. The rest of us are weeded out and tossed away (see her analogy about customers as a food crop here: http://www.massive-action-marketing.com/Relationship-Marketing-Newsletter-Marketing.html).
She is a nasty, cold, self-serving piece of work...
I am a relative of Michelle's and want people to know that she does not live with her family anymore. She disconnected from all of us several years ago and moved away. We do not know where she lives now. We love her and miss her for her sense of humor, intelligence, her boundless spirit, her self-confidence and her intellectual curiosity. It is always hard to lose a family member, no matter how complicated the connection. I will respect her privacy by not divulging the details of our history. I will only say that, of course, we are not a perfect family, but there is more than one side to the story she tells about her relationship with us.
DeleteSince you post as anonymous and you do not identify Michelle, I have to assume you speak of Michelle Ede.
DeleteOf course there is always two sides to a story---often more than two. But those of us who have experienced Michelle's behaviour as "Light" on Tracy's forum have not experienced her as the person you describe, but rather as a narcissistic, self-absorbed, inflexible, and punitive, retaliatory individual.
If you will go to Google and search for the website WhoIs, it will give you a way to search for the person who has registered a website. Michelle has a site called "LightsHouse" (you can Google it as well to get the exact URL). If you input that URL into the WhoIs search box, you'll get a page that, if you scroll to the lower portions, will give you the address, telephone number, and email address of the person who registered the site: Michelle Ede.
If you are saying she moved away from that address several years ago, then you are saying she is even less trustworthy than originally thought because she actually lied on her site registration forms (this is the address the police will come looking for you if you do something illegal on your website, like commit fraud--what makes me wonder what she was out to hide by lying about her registration address?). If this IS her current address, a Google search on the address has revealed two other women with the same surname living at the same address, one in her 70s, so if this is her correct address, she has family living with her, one presumably being her mother. So, if that is the case, she's lied to the people on the site about her status of being No Contact with her family. Either way, it doesn't paint the picture of a lovely, honest, trustworthy person.
My personal experience with her was emotionally traumatic as the result of her saying something untrue, being unwilling to correct her "error" (which I personally do not think was an error but an outright lie with the full intent to deceive) when it was pointed out to her by a bona fide expert on the subject, and then behaving punitively towards me and the expert rather than withdraw or change her incorrect declarations. This is not the action of a person who has empathy for others or scruples: it is narcissistic behaviour.
If you do a little sleuthing you can find her, and you might find that her defection from your family coincided with her hooking up with Tracy Culleton, founder of the DoNM website, who has admitted destroying a forum run by a qualified psychologist in order to pirate the members to her site. It is a nasty little game they play, preying on vulnerable women (at least one has committed suicide but because it was before my time on the forum I can't provide any details and Tracy and Michelle just swept it under the rug)for their own gain.
While I accept your wish to "respect her privacy," you also have a perfect right to set the record straight, especially since she has not bothered to respect the privacy of her family's.
Thank you for writing.
Violet
I am very upset to hear this, I bought a $20 tapping package from one of her sites. (which I can't really afford as I am on disability). Is it dangerous to use it?. My history is very extreme, should I risk it?
DeleteThe choice, of course, must be yours. If your history is very extreme, I would not use it except under the guidance of a qualified therapist. That is where one woman got into deep trouble, doing tapping withh Tracy over the phone with Tracy in Ireland and the woman on the US West Coast. Completely freaked her out and there was nobody there to help.
DeleteDon't spend money on this kind of stuff until you have searched the web. There are videos and other stuff for free, just Google it. Tracy has no compassion for the people she rooks, no integrity (if she did, she would tell you it was available for free on the web and why her $20 package is worth more than what you can get for free), and doesn't give a damn what happens to you if you use the package and get into trouble. After that other woman had trouble (a woman I have spoken to privately and at length), Tracy refused to take down the woman's testimonial (a testimonal she told me she was pressured and manipulated into writing) and, in fact, published in on another of her websites using the woman's real (and full) name!! This woman's history was also very extreme, involving childhood sexual abuse, and when she accessed some of that without a therapist to help her, she freaked out.
So, as I said earlier, the choice is definitely yours to make, but given what you have told me and what I have heard first hand from someone who got suckered into it, I would touch it without a qualified therapist in the room.
Hugs and best wishes to you,
Violet
Hi - yup that site still up and running! I am in Irelando_O
Deletejust saw that site yesterday. other n sites also warn against it. Violet - your alert is fine.And fuck them - don't worry about legal stuff - if you can support what you say ie records of posts can be recovered.I am a reg psychologist, very legally competent - I will keep an eye out for that lot. anonymous here only not to alert who is assessing them within Ireland.
Hello Violet--When I joined the DoNM forum, I had assumed that either Tracy or Michelle had at least some education or training in the mental health field. Taking on the responsibility of facilitating a forum of adult daughters of NMs is a task that requires not only knowledge of the psychopathology of the narcissistic abusers, (which seems to be Michelle's exclusive focus), but also a deep and hopefully empathetic understanding of, and sensitivity to, the process of the survivors. The latter was CLEARLY MISSING on this forum. From what I have read here, and other blogs, this has had very negative consequences on a considerable number of women, who have felt deeply betrayed, and even more wounded as a result of their bad experiences on the DoNM forum.
ReplyDeleteKnowing now that neither Tracy nor Michelle had any training at all in the mental health field, it becomes clear that their forum is a very risky option for anyone on the path of healing the abuse they suffered as a DoNM. They really have no place running such a forum at all. But because there is no recourse to be taken to stop them, they will continue to do so, and continue to hurt more women along the way.
I am glad you've mentioned Tracey's book, written under her pseudonym Danu Morrigan. I noticed this as well. Considering all the bannings that have transpired on the DoNM forum, it makes me wonder how much of this book will be her own material, and how much of it might be plagiarized, from banned ex-members of her forum? Another question I have is whether she will be using the stories of ex-members without their permission..? It will be interesting to investigate this further.
Those of us who were banned from the group have wondered the same thing--and if there is any recourse for any of us if we find our stories being bandied about as part of a money-making venture on the part of an exploitave, self-centered creature such as Tracy.
DeleteI have been in contact, personally, with women who were on Dr. Karyl McBride's forum at the time Tracy joined it under the name "Dana." Each one tells the same tale of Dana disrupting the forum, flogging her EFT, and generally being so disruptive that eventually Dr. McBride shut the forum down.
In retrospect, I think the whole thing was the first step in a giant scam that is just now coming to fruition. And Tracy's lack of empathy for the pain of the victims of NMs was obvious even then. Basically, she found a vulnerable population--DoNMs--that she could exploit for gain but she had to have a more controlled environment. Her excuse for destroying Dr. McBride's forum is that it was unmoderated and therefore unsafe (her own forum is moderated and therefore safe, in her mind), completely ignoring the fact that until she joined and started acting like a bull in a china shop, the good doctor's forum was not only safe, but effective.
I always thought that the timing of the disintegration of Dr. McBride's forum coinciding with the launch of Tracy's site was just too coincidental. She hadn't much success selling the EFT, according to one of my sources, but looking at the situation as a whole, I suspect the reason is that the NM victims like you and me--the ones who were well along in their healing paths--were somehow discouraging the more vulnerable members from falling for Tracy's quackery. Also, there was Dr. McBride to contend with--I don't know if she stepped in or not, but having an authority figure at the helm of the forum, especially one with bona fide credentials in the mental health profession, could not have been in Tracy's best interests with respect to drumming up EFT business.
So, Dr. McBride wrote her book and, based on its success, started her forum; Tracy started her forum, destroyed Dr. McBride's forum, poached her membership, weeded out all of the people likely to be honestly helpful (read that "keep them from squandering their money and mental health") to the most vulnerable members, and set herself up as the Mother Goddess (that's who the real "Danu" is) with rigid control and an agenda to isolate these women from real sources of help and prey on them.
Reply Pt 2
DeleteI'm pretty sure she's not making a lot of money on the EFT in this economy--but people buy books. So, completing her reversal of Dr. McBride's winning formula, now she has vast quantities of personal and painful material, as would a therapist, that she has turned into a book. The book's primary objective, of course, would have to be to make money but I think it has a second objective--to draw more people to the forum.
Michelle is already lying about the popularity of her own site in her promos for her book, claiming it is relied upon by 1/4 million people (probably her hit count). The more members Tracy can claim for her forum, the more inflated her ability to imply value both in the book and the forum--more money for her. To the best of our knowledge, being banned doesn't take your name off the membership headcount!
One thing about Michelle's focus on the pathology of the Ns: unfortunately, the articles she has posted are largely plagiarized from other sites, Joanna Ashmun's in particular. Not only does she not give attribution, she changes what others have written to suit her own personal biases and beliefs. Because it is impossible to tell what in her articles has been so altered, it is not possible to trust anything written on her site (or Tracy's, since Michelle wrote many of those articles). I know this for an absolute fact, based on my and Becca's experience with Michelle's erroneous write up about violent NMs--she banned a qualified psychologist rather than amend her article to reflect the truth.
So, I will be monitoring the Amazon site to see what kind of reviews come up for the book--can't write anything because I don't have an active account--living overseas, I use local on-line book sellers to cut down on postage and eliminate customs duties. Maybe some people in America can review not only the book but its author??
Hello again Violet--
ReplyDeleteYou have really done your homework, when it comes to exposing the truth about Tracy and Michelle. Excellent research job! Thank you for your efforts in gathering and posting all this information. I hope that it reaches all those who need to find it, BEFORE they are subjected to the abuses taking place on the DoNM forum.
I had no knowledge of Tracy's prior history on Dr McBride's forum. Considering all that has transpired after that... the demolition by Tracy of the McBride forum and subsequent creation of the DoNM forum, the enthronement of Tracy and Michelle as the absolute overlords on the DoNM forum and the recurring theme of banning any woman who questions Tracy and Michelle's absolute authority on that forum, now followed by the upcoming book by Tracy... it all makes sense, in the bigger picture. All the ugly little pieces fit together so perfectly. What could be more unconscionable than using the stories of vulnerable survivors of NM's, conveniently banned from your own forum, as a money making scheme? I am hard pressed to think of anything quite as sinister.
Well, how about this? http://daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/donation.html
DeleteAs one of my other outraged friends remarked, she could almost hear Sally Struthers' voice begging for funds for these poor, downtrodden women to get the help they need. I'm afraid I was more cynical, asking my friend if she thought we got our own little DoNM whom we can write to and send little gifts and receive quarterly progress reports on.
According to the language of this shameless beggary, this particular page has been up since late 2009--I was a member of the forum at that time and I do not recall ever seeing it. Had I know that fraud and charlatan was pimping us out as pathetic poverty cases who needed help from total strangers in order to keep our forum running, I think I would have been banned a lot sooner because THIS is so demeaning, so degrading and so insulting that I would have had to tell the whole forum what she was doing.
I am sure, however, that if anyone asks her about this, she has a ready justification/rationalization to whip out and smother their inquisitiveness with. But you have to wonder if maybe this doesn't run afoul of the law--shouldn't she be registered as a charity in order to solicit and receive funds on the behalf of others? And the big lie--an implication that it casts $25,000/mo to keep the site running ($5 per member, 5000 members) is just so much hogwash--for one thing, her husband owns the portal and the site and while he hosts a dozen or more sites for her, he also hosts sites for others as well. There is no way in hell it taks $25K USD to keep that site on the web.
Wouldn't it me nice if liar's pants really did catch on fire!?!
Where there is smoke, there's fire. So I can imagine a certain someone's underpants have exploded into flames several times by now! :-O)
ReplyDeleteIt is definitely a load of b.s. for Tracy/Danu to purport that it takes $25,000 to keep her forum site running. I know several people who have managed online forums on topics pertaining to politics, art and health-relate issues, and it did not cost much at all to get these sites going. Usually roughly about $50-$100. Once they had enough members, who used the forum sites regularly, they were able to delegate some of the responsibility to them, and the members were glad to contribute their time to keep the sites operational.
"Shameless beggary" says it all. NOBODY should be donating anything to this narcissist abuser disguised as a DoNM savior. That site has the word SCAM written all over it.
Perfectly credible, exploiting the emotions of countless women who have been DONMs. BTW tracy's site does not exist anymore!!!
ReplyDeleteTracy has a dozen or more sites, so you'll have to be a bit more specific as to which one doesn't exist anymore.
DeleteIf you mean her DoNM site, I am sorry to say it is still around. I Googled it just now, clicked the link, and there it was.
Sorry.
Yes, you really have to be careful about some forums. There is a very popular forum that used to be very very good for NPD survivors. But then, the forum went down hill, when the moderators changed. One was an obvious N herself, and the other one, was hell bent on being a victim. Both of these moderators blasted those that survived, and had great insight in telling their tales. Instead, these moderators would attack the survivor.
ReplyDeleteI guess that makes sense. someone with NPD, going on forums looking for a weak target.
BTW, I like this blog. I can identify with everything that stated about N moms.
Really, my N mom, if I did have any feelings for her, it would be one of pity. Such a miserable miserable miserable woman she is, and she lives to spread the misery.
Lucky for me, I never took her comments as insults. I just thought she was uneducated and didnt know me well, since I essentially lived a double life, and never went to her for anything. when I turned 18, I was on my own.
The other thing, I thought it was normal to not have a close relationship with her. I just figured that its natural not to be liked by everyone, and some people bond more than others.
I went NC on her when she viciously attacked my daughter. Thats another story.
Now, five years later, my mom still stalks me. Whats funny, is that up until NC, I still thought my mom was a normal person. After NC, and all her tirades, lies and stalking, and just shocking behavior, now I've come to realize that she is just mentally disturbed.
I wish I had more insight as to how far my mom is going to go to get to her "supply". I keep thinking that since she essentially doesnt care about us anyway, that she will be easy to get rid of, but then again, I have the issue of how she is about looks, and she really cares about how it looks that she doesnt have a relationship with her grand kids, or daughter.
When she stalks, she demands updates.
But anyway, with regards to blogs that are dangerous, and predatory, well, I guess blogs are evil as much as they are insightful. Luckily, in writing, predators are easy to spot.
You are fortunate if you had a core strength as a child sufficiently tough to survive a self-absorbed narcissist as a mother. Sadly, many people are not and they are unceasingly tormented with feelings of poor self-worth...their inner thinking is that there must be something terribly defective in them for their own mothers to not love them. This can be exacerbated when their own children are born and they find themselves passionately attached and loving their own children. It causes them to further feel flawed that their own mothers could not love them.
DeleteWe believe that forums such as the DoNM forum exist to help people. And, indeed they do. On this forum the relationship between the sisters can be very supportive and healing. Unfortunately, one must walk on eggshells in case the administration disapproves of something you say, EVEN IN PRIVATE MESSAGES, because that can get you banned. And banning not only hurts the women who are kicked out without explanation, it can hurt the women left behind in the forum who wonder and worry about the missing sister and may even take on some additional self-esteem issues due to what they perceive as an abandonment.
Not everyone is able to perceive the predators among them. It is part of the healing process to learn to let go of cherished beliefs and view them dispassionately enough to see the truth. Sometimes those beliefs are validated--but sometimes we find that we have merely fooled ourselves by refusing to acknowledge that some of our idols have feet of clay. Some of us, upon such a discovery, keep silent and let other find out for themselves. Others broadcast the news, giving clues to those who haven't been able to see for themselves.
You are fortunate to be one who can spot predators easily through their writings--
What I find so uncanny, is that I was able to recognize my mother in everything in you said! Her comments, comparisons, etc. How is it that these people all act alike?
ReplyDeleteAnd thank you for your reply. I truly never looked it at that way. I guess thats a part of my flawed character as well, because you SHOULD look up to your parents. But I just couldnt, adn never did because I did not understand their viciousness, and they could never earn my trust or respect. In a normal relationship, a childs relationship with their parents, shouldn't have to be earned.
I guess that is why these pathological predators HAVE kids in the first place. They know that those OUTSIDE the family, their trust would have to be earned and can be here this day, and gone the next. A child, however, their beleif is that their own child I guess could and should be controlled forever.
That explains my moms behavior exactly. Really I think she insults me and smears me out of her own frustration of not being able to control me. She couldnt control me as a child, as a teenager, and now she cant control me as an adult.
But she tries, tries, tries, and never ceases to amaze me that she says these things, and I dont take it personally. I will say something like, "well, thats your opinion" or "well, thats your genre, I have a different experience". She will try to gaslight, but its so insidious, because the things she is gas lighting about, she wasnt even there!!! (ie, she tried to rewrite the birth of my son, negating everything I said, but she wasnt even there!"
To me, her comments, comparisons, etc, just sound ridiculous and childish, and I would point that out to her too. If she tried to blame me for something, I would be like, "wow, thanks for faith in me in all the power I have, I should be making more money!" She really hated how glib I was, and would mock me at times, but I just dont care.
My father, enabling father, he is just an idiot. He sits there and has her side all the time, and when my mom complains, He gets mad at the person my mom is complaining about.
My main concern at this point, is that my mom wants to get to my daughter. I cant tell if she is malignant narcissist, or just a plain narcissist. It seems as though she needs my cooperation in my own family's demise. Like if she hires a PI to stalk me, I dont know what that would accomplish for her. She's smeared me to everyone we used to have in common, which we dont have any one in common in anymore. So I hope I am not being naive in what she is capable of. Thats why these blogs are so helpful. In sight.
thank you so much for your post. It lets me see what I am missing in terms of understanding.
S
I do believe you have hit a very salient point: your NM's reaction to being unable to control you.
DeleteThis was a key issue in my relationship with my NM. As long as I did as I was told or made the choices she wanted me to make, she didn't act out much. But let me "defy" her (and her definition of "defiance" was pretty broad--"disagreement" was included in it as well as facial expressions) and all hell broke loose.
Funny you should remark your mother's gaslighting about the birth of your son--mine gaslighted about the CONCEPTION of my daughter, an event for which she was most definitely not present! Yet her version has been taken as truth by many members of my family (including my daughter) despite multiple other family members validating my story (that I didn't meet the man NM identified as her father until I was 4 months pregnant with her).
You may want to proceed with extreme caution if your NM is a malignant one. Those people will go to any length to get what they want. Mine plotted and schemed for two years and created a complex plan that involved the courts in three states and getting one of her brothers to commit perjury, all so she could "legally" steal my children. From the moment I refused to abort or give up my first child, from the moment I succeeded in "defying" her wishes, she began seeking avenues of vengeance and eventually she succeeded.
If your NM is a MNM, don't ignore her incursions into your life: you could end up like I did, with her having custody of your kids!
Omg!! I am going through the same thing right now! She has called social services on me 13 times in the last 8 years! Yesterday I received a letter saying they had another report. Talked to the social worker today n haha...we totally connected. But your post scares me! How do I protect my children and our family from her?
DeleteI would say 13 times in 8 years, none of them coming up with anything wrong, qualifies as harassment.
DeleteSo, you start with asking this social worker to write you a letter on official letterhead confirming that your NM has reported you to social services 13 times in 8 years, and each time the report was without merit. Then you visit your police department and see if they will charge her with stalking/harassing you, using that letter as proof (keep your original, however). Whatever recommendation they give you, try to get it in writing, also.
Next, you apply for a restraining order that includes any type of harassment, including calls to third parties like social services and the police: that letter serves as proof that she is harassing you. Again, keep the original (make a photocopy and have it notarized so you can give that to the court as your proof).
If none of that works, see a lawyer about suing her for harassment and name a figure that is high enough to make her sit up and take notice. Make sure your lawyer also asks that your NM pay your legal costs.
Finally, you can go No Contact: move, change your phone numbers, don't tell anyone in your family your new info unless you are positive they won't tell your NM (and make sure they know not to tell), change jobs so she can't follow you home from your place of employment.
But I would start with legal action so she knows you are no longer going to play good little victim and keep waiting helplessly for her to attack you. You have to fight back and you have to do it in a way that clearly makes her the bad guy. She is stalking and harassing you and if you don't do something, she may get lucky the next time and get a social worker who will listen to her...
UGH!!! Thanks for your candor, and warning, and sharing. I am sorry to hear about your custody arrangement, as I personally know those battles are very fierce. My NM and my ex psycho path husband, banded together when I left him, and then later, when I terminated his rights to his son, (because he tried to kill him. He actually tried to kill him when I brought him home from the hospital, but it would take me five years unrefutable proof to bring it to court, and have the judge terminate rights, and let me get on with my life). And oh, guess what, after my ex lost, my NM pretended to be on my side the whole time.
ReplyDeleteI just cant tell if she is of the malignant variety, since she doesnt appear to be very bright. She appears to just be opportunistic. But who knows.
Who knows if she will just dismiss me and her children, (hopefully) because we are unreachable, or if she will spend her days plotting.
She seems really cognitively deficient in her attempts to get at me. Its like, someone else mentioned their daughter, and then to one up that other person, my mom will call me making her demands. Then, the next day, its a new day, and she forgets and is on to the next agenda.
I am hoping my mom is the type of psycho path that just gets lazy with age. I hope. I dont have a pulse on her strong will.
How do you know you are dealing with the malignant variety? Thanks again for all your insight, and all your help.
I would guess that the ultimate test of whether or not an NM is malignant or not is to look for gratuitous cruelty...a streak of either physical or emotional sadism.
DeleteOften Ns will be mean to us to gratify some urge of their own but they have rationalizations or you can see what prompted it (some friend of your NM's mentions her daughter and suddenly your NM is up in your face, for example). But while my NM acted badly towards me in reaction to some real or imagined behaviour on my part, like the average NM, she added to that with pro-active acts of cruelty, some of them petty, some big. For example, her armchair in the living room was positioned near the entrance to the hallway that led to the bedrooms and bathroom. Sometimes when I would walk past, coming out of the hallway, she would stick her foot out and trip me, then smile slyly and say "Way to go, Miss Graceful." THAT is malignant.
And oh, BTW, my ex did severely damage my son, as he has brain damage, and will never be what he is capable of, but we are still working with him. He's shown improvement since hitting puberty, as that is a regrowth for the brain, almost but not quite, similar to when children grow, from age 0 to 5.
ReplyDeleteWhat can my mother do? She doesnt know where we live. I keep my old address for appearances, and email too, so when she goes all stalky, she thinks I get her messages.
What can an estranged mother do? its going on five years now. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
And yeah, she may be malignant, as she is killing my father. Forced him to have some stupid unnecessary surgery on his kidneys, when dad was against it. I broke NC for that, (mistake). And then the next day at the hospital, my dad was a puppet, saying how he wanted the unnecessary surgery, etc. Ever since then, he's been severely incapacitated, but my mom is getting a lot of mileage out of the supply and feigned sadness for all that she is going through, (but caused).
I myself didnt walk to I was 4.. hmmmmm. and she knew I was being sexually assaulted and did nothing about it.
She sounds malignant, but I am hoping from a structual stand point, she cant get to me.
She is sick of being dads caretaker, and is calling me out of the blue all of a sudden, so we can "support" eachother. (me taking care of enabler dad, so she can go on vacation by herself like she used to. His kidney problem is really cramping her style, as she tells me she had to cancel her vacation because there are no dialysis machines in Egypt.) PUKE!!!
The best advice I can give you is to DOCUMENT EVERYTHING. Open up a blog like this and set it to private so nobody can see it but you. Then use it like a diary and make sure to record everything she does or says.
DeleteYou can (and should) include entries that chronicle past abuses as well.
This gives you two things: a dated record of her behaviours and, even more important, a place you can return to, review, and make connections.
Let me give you an example of the latter:
Like most NMs, mine had a variety of different kinds of cruelties she would visit on me, often widely spaced over time...it was difficult to see patterns as a result.
When I started the private blog that became the 46 Memories, I began to see those patterns emerge as I wrote the various entries. She abandoned me to be adopted when I was 2; she left me with my grandmother for 2 years; she dumped me on my grandparents every summer; she didn't come back from a vacation and left me with my father; she went on an extended holiday and left me with a neighbour; she moved and didn't tell me and left me sitting on the stoop of an empty apartment for hours, wondering what to do and where to go: it took each of these stories being written for me to see the pattern of abandonment that threaded my life. I found other patterns as well: over a period of years she systematically deprived me of things/people/pets/children I loved. It was through remembering things that happened in my life and writing them down and then being able to sort the memories into groups with the same theme that I really began to see her for what she truly was and how pervasive and long-standing her cruelty was--and it calmed the chaos in my head, bringing all the disjointed memories into a calm pattern.
Even if you don't seek to find the patterns as I did, it can be a good cathartic exercise and it will make a permanent record of her behaviour should you ever need to present it to a person of authority to protect yourself from her.
Thank you.. I think becoming a mother was the most triggering, and when I started to document sporadically. Now, that I have a daughter, the abuse is definitely more acute, and patterns are easier to see. When my mom thinks she's "in" the abuse is viciously escalated, but when she thinks she's out, she uses a ton of manipulative tactics, switching sporadically, one day she is sweet and saying please, other times she is ordering, demanding, demeaning and rude. I've read all her correspondence over the past five years, and it sums up to be a mentally disordered person.
ReplyDeleteYes, I was actually considering a blog, but for some reason, I am afraid. I dont know of what.
You probably have some kind of subconcsious expectation regarding a blog, like you have to post every day or the writing has to be publication-quality or that it has to make sense to somebody other than yourself. A lot of DoNMs can't just do something for themselves, they have to have a lot of rules (often subconscious) around it, rules that they are afraid to break because the NM in their heads will chew them up and spit them out. There are no rules with a blog. You can post once a year, once an hour--whatever you want to do. No right and no wrong either.
DeleteIf you are worried about NM finding out, use Google's Blogger format (this blog is a Blogger blog) and set your privacy settings (part of setting up the blog) to private. It won't go on the web and nobody can see it but you.
If you are concerned about violating the "don't air our dirty linen in public" stricture so many NMs put on us, consider that keeping the blog private satisfies that. The 46 Memories were a private blog that even my husband didn't know about for more than five years.
Sometimes we don't want to write this stuff down because it takes on a dimension of realness it did not have before. If that is your fear, then perhaps you could set up the blog strictly as a vehicle for keeping notes about her behaviour. The blog is date and time stamped so you will not get dates confused or muddled or forgotten, which could be important if the authorities are ever involved. It also makes it impervious to loss--flood, fire, tornado, tsunami--it is safe on Google's servers for you to retrieve from anywhere in the world.
Do consider it--
You just confirmed my answer.. You said
Delete"Often Ns will be mean to us to gratify some urge of their own but they have rationalizations or you can see what prompted it (some friend of your NM's mentions her daughter and suddenly your NM is up in your face, for example). But while my NM acted badly towards me in reaction to some real or imagined behaviour on my part, like the average NM, she added to that with pro-active acts of cruelty, some of them petty, some big. For example, her armchair in the living room was positioned near the entrance to the hallway that led to the bedrooms and bathroom. Sometimes when I would walk past, coming out of the hallway, she would stick her foot out and trip me, then smile slyly and say "Way to go, Miss Graceful." THAT is malignant."
This is my mother to a TEE!!!! Well of course.. My father almost passing at her hands, should've been the final sign for me.. A part of me still has a problem in comprehending this level of evil... Much like my ex trying to murder me and his son... But it happened, and its real..
Damn it.. She is malignant. I think I knew this all along. Doesnt matter. We will be in hiding forever..
I just realized, as much as I want to know the truth, I dont think I want to understand anymore than I do. I just realized, that I have very few memories of my childhood. What comes up is sporadic events related to friends, and outside accomplishments, (strangely enough that my NM was not apart of). In reading your post, I actually tried to remember, but then realized, I had very few memories, if any of my childhood, and none really related to my mother, (other than a few vicious beatings, and just outlandish behavior on my NMs part)
ReplyDeleteShe is very vicious. Maybe I dont want to know. But I will definitely take your advice, and at least try to put some energy toward it, and hopefully, someday, have the courage to blog.
Everything you said was spot on. I am afraid of NM finding it, somehow. I have the adult child of a narcissitic parent personality, regarding the "airing of dirty laundry" something that I've heard all my life, and then was punished for if I dared do anything remotedly related to the telling of the truth.
I guess I have been affected moreso than MN than I care to admit. Its obvious that I have more work to do in this arena, otherwise, why would've I have sought you out?
Thank you for all your suggestions. I will digest everything you said, and hopefully, be able to forge forward into action. Some day.
I realize this post is from 2012, but I have very few memories of my childhood. I can look at photos and have no connection to the event!
DeleteI just found your blog, coincidentally through the comments of a guardian article about Tracy's book.
ReplyDeleteI recently completed 19 months of weekly therapy with a brilliant psychologist who helped me through the realization and acceptance of my mother's narcissism. I was fortunate enough to receive the therapy through my uni, and I don't think I would have graduated without it, actually.
I left home at 16 but have struggled, as many of us do, to follow through with my good intentions of building a life for myself. I have hope now. I have confidence, while before I had a lot of bravado and enthusiasm, but little self-confidence.
I consider myself lucky for having left home early as it gave me a chance to become exposed to different people--functional people. I have not cut my mother out of my life, but I FULLY SUPPORT those who do. My father is in his late 80s and very loyal to my mother. I am quite close to him and so put up with what I need to put up with to maintain a relationship with him.
I feel 3 months out of therapy, I am in assimilation mode of what I've learned. It's quite refreshing to have hope and so valuable to me, to have found your site. Some time ago I was on an unrelated internet forum and mentioned I was the daughter of a N; another member sent me a message privately, telling me she had a lot of experience with Ns but to 'be careful where I got information from.' She did not give me specifics but learning of the horrible forum you describe, I can only imagine what she meant.
I have read the Mcbride book. I didn't know she had a forum. How sad that it came to that.
Anyway--thank you very much for this blog. I will be mining it, lol.
It sounds like your story has a happy ending, in that you are able to keep up your relationship with your father. In so many cases, this is impossible. I used to stay in contact just for my father's take, up until I had a daughter. My daughter became the target of new and improved abuse, and father was very enabling, even taking credit for it. (my mom would say something really ridiculous to my face, and then deny it, and say my father said it, and he would agree. ) I went NC on dad too, and come to find out, he is just as bad as my mother, just not as aggressive about it.
DeleteI cant imagine staying in contact. How do you put up with your mother? Do you just tune her out completely? How does your mother manage? Most Ns do things behind our back, and control and manipulate that way. How to deal with that?
I guess happy endings aere where you find them. My NM did me the great favour of remaining egregiously arrogant, even with regard to respecting the advice of her doctor and died of heart failure (alone in her apartment--her landlord and the police found her after several days) just 4 years after a quintuple bypass because she wouldn't change diet, stop smoking or take her medications correctly. That was nearly 15 years ago and we were NC at the time.
DeleteBut when my kids were young she was a horror--she actually stole them and through an elaborate ruse involving lawyers and courts in three states, perjury and outright lies, managed to get a guardianship which she then promptly used by giving them up for adoption to her childless brother and his wife, people who had failed the home study for agency adoptions in their home state. They were gone for 8 years and when the truth came out (she had told the FOO I was a drug-addicted prostitute and she was "rescuing" my kids from me--and she told the kids that I had abandoned them) and everyone was upset with her for what she did, she refused to back down. Today, 40 years later, my daughter does not speak to me either because she continues to believe NM's lies or because by sucking up to my mother, NM disinherited me and she got the 6-figure legacy that my grandmother had intended to be split between my brother and me.
I did eventually establish a relationship with my father but he was remarried and had 5 kids with his second wife. I felt a bit like an interloper, a 5th wheel, in a family that was only partly mine.
They will control and manipulate and do things behind your back, so the best thing you can do is watch your back. If your NM is not the malignant sort, then she will engage in hoovering and false apologies and pathetic abandoned mama dramas with you can ignore; if she is more aggressive, she will attempt to manipulate and control you through any means possible, including your kids.
My best advice is to go NC, but that doesn't work for everyone or they hav situations in which a complete break from the FOO can't be done, in which case, a strongly enforced LC may be helpful. But she won't make it easy for you, no matter which you choose, you can count on that!
Thank you for writing--
ReplyDeleteI will continue to add information to this blog, so there will be plenty for you to "mine"! Some of the entries are wholly original, but a lot of them begin with someone else's excellent article (for which I supply a link, if available) that I flesh out with my own thoughts and experiences. Many times people do not fully "connect" with emotionally charged information without examples that resonate with them. And while my examples may not resonate with everyone, anyone who grew up with an abusive parent and who reads my experiences is put in the position of knowing they are not the only person on the planet whose mother (and/or father) seems to hate them.
I have dealt with some blowback from family as a result of this, but at 65 I have come to the conclusion that I do not have to continue keeping the family secrets...I never agreed to it and there is nothing left in their arsenal to intimidate me with. And so my story is available to anyone who can relate to my experiences and feelings--they are not alone.
I also did therapy--five years--and found it immensely helpful. My sane family members actually noticed and found it a good thing--my not-so-sane family members were too self-absorbed to notice! One of the most valuable things I got out of therapy were the tools to continue making sense of and to continue sorting out my upbringing. Good therapy continues long after you stop visiting the therapist--it becomes a way of life, a healthy way to interact with your environment and the people in it. Hopefully, getting good therapy like this early in your life will keep you off the path so many DoNM sisters tread--marrying Ns like their parents because their internal definition of love is damaged by the lack of it they received as children.
Please feel free to join the blog so you can be notified of new posts as they come up. I am currently doing a 24-part series on the Characteristics of Narcissistic Mothers and from there will move on to The Ten Commandments of Dysfunctional Families. You are welcome to mine this blog--and visit the others I link to--and encouraged to add to it with comments (and even a guest blog stint if you have a topic you wish to write about).
Best of luck to you and a happy, healthy future!
I was complaining about my mom on a 'mommy website' and one of the members suggested I look up info about NPD. It brought me to the DoNM page and it was like someone had opened my eyes! This was my mom. I wanted to do a little more research on my own and found this, which was a little heart breaking, but Im glad I did. Would you be able to direct me to some reputable resources regarding these issues? Thank you!
ReplyDeleteKathy Krajco and Joanne Ashmun have written extensively about narcissism in general and narcissistic mothers in particular. Both ladies are deceased, but their work remains on the web and I have found their insights and explanations to be invaluable.
DeleteSam Vaknin is a self-confessed narcissist who has decided to exploit his NPD by writing about it. He's a little hard to take but the insights you gain from reading straight "from the horse's mouth," at it were, are enlightening, to say the least!
Some good books you might find are Dr. Karyl McBride's "Will I ever be good enough?" (she also has a website), Scott Peck's "People of the Lie" (I saw my mother on almost every page), and Dr. Susan Forward's "Toxic Parents."
If you are on Facebook, look up Adult Children of Narcissists and ask to join. It is not a very active group but the members are supportive.
Write--as you read this stuff and get your epiphanies (and you will!)--start writing. I recommend a Blogger blog like this one, set to private if you don't want anyone reading it. Record your discoveries, your feelings, vent all you want, cry, do whatever your heart tells you in the privacy of your blog. It is marvelously cathartic--the 46 Memories started out just this way and I kept them secret for more than five years before I realized that I could help more people than just myself.
Google some key words: "Narcissist mother" "DoNM" "banned from DoNM" "abusive mother" etc. Lots of good info out there, but be careful of the two sites I have identified. Also, if you come across some questionable sites, please let me know and I will add them to the "Beware" list.
And join this blog, so you can receive notifications of updates and perhaps connect with others.
And you can always email me.
Hugs and thank you so much for writing!
Hi, I saw teh 'Danu Morrigan' book advertised and recognised my mother immediately from the description. Until that point (and I'm in my 30s) I had not realised that there was an actual term to describe her - I had always just assumed that I was uniquely unlucky and had no idea that there were other women out there who had been through this. However, I'm so glad now that I decided to do a bit of research before purchasing the book - thanks so much Sweet Violet for the warning, and for the advice about which books really are worth reading. I think it's disgraceful that someone so unqualified and disreputable had been able to publish on such a sensitive subject, and that the book is advertised and sold in reputable places such as The Guardian online bookshop. Anyway, thanks ever so much for taking the trouble to put up the warning - I will be staying well away and following your advice on what to read to find out more. :) xxx
ReplyDeleteHi there! I am sorry to find yet another member of the DoNM cohort because I am sorry you've had to go through this. I am happy, however, that you found your way here.
ReplyDeleteIn addition to reading the material I have provided (and continue to provide) on this blog, I highly recommend you Google Kathy Krajco and Joanna Ashmun and read their work. Also, the links under recommended blogs will take you to some really great places with terrific people who have experienced much the same as you.
When we first discover that our mother's are narcissistic, it can be a gut-wrenching discovery. But the truth is, it is the very first step on the path of healing and today there are so many resources for people such as yourself...and so much support! I was in therapy for five years for the aftermath of a narcissistic husband and mother--in the 1980s, when NPD wasn't even a real diagnosis and the victims of these people were largely unrecognized. We have come SO FAR since that time! If you had to discover that you are a Narcissist's Child, now is probably the best time in history to do that!
Best of luck to you. And please feel free to join this blog and comment at will.
I would also add Alice Miller's work to the "must read" list. Reading her little book, THE DRAMA OF THE GIFTED CHILD, changed my life when I read it back in the early 1980s. She was brilliant in her understanding of the damage done by narcissistic parents.
ReplyDeleteShe died just a few years ago, but her website is still up and running. Check it out here: http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php
Thank you, Kalibiza--I have added her site to the list of recommended and I have also started a list of recommended books and have included it on the list. Thank you for the recommendations.
DeleteYour welcome, Violet--Another book I recommend is THE WIZARD OF OZ AND OTHER NARCISSISTS, by Eleanor Payson, which came out in 2002. It's a very well organized, and very readable book, that elucidates the all various styles (covert and overt) of narcissistic exploitation, manipulation and abuse, whether by parent, spouse, boss, or friend. It presents good examples of real life narcissists and provides some key ideas as how to deal with them in various situations, emphasizing the importance of self-esteem and boundaries. It's a great book to refer back to when necessary, loaded with insightful and very validating information. I would give it 5 out 5 stars.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree, but as long as there are selfish, self-absorbed people without conscience or empathy, it will continue.
DeleteThis blog is only a drop in the bucket, but it is better than nothing at all. Would that there was something to put in the water to eliminate selfishness, eh?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWow thank you so much for sharing this blog. My mother is a narcissist as is my father. Both in different ways. My mother wanted me as her miracle child. I was to be the thing in her life aw treasured most. Until she abandoned me at 14 because she couldn't tolerate my negative, controlling father. She moved to a different country (for a second time) and I was to stay with my father. But how dare I hate her for leaving because soon I would have my own life. When she was present, she would constantly tell people about things that humiliated me, like having my period when I was 9 years old and I didn't know what that meant and was the only one who had it at that age. She'd take stuff from my room and throw it out, like love letters from my boyfriend. She'd look at me with hate in her eyes, because how dare a young child insult their mother. I should have been more like my best friends because they treated their mother better than I did. I remember once dad came home from work and mum told him I had done something wrong. I got in so much trouble but I didn't do it. My mum did. But she blamed me.
ReplyDeleteDad on the other hand controlled me via my friends, education, boyfriends. He'd wash my car despite knowing I was going out in 5 minutes, wouldn't look at me and say hello when I came home, I had to wash my own clothes and cook my own dinner and make my own bed and other adult duties at 14
So now as an adult I feel like my life is unmanageable. I want to be admitted to get intensive therapy but feel ridiculous asking my psychologist that. I feel awful every waking day but at the same time I am grateful I am psychologically aware because I can seek help and HOPE my life turns around.
I worry if change is not possible. Will I be stuck like this forever?!
"Will I be stuck like this forever?!"
DeleteWell, that depends on YOU! Getting admitted for "intensive therapy" probably won't do you much good because this is not something that responds to that. Having a short burst of intensive therapy simply cannot substitute for regular (once or twice a week) therapy over a period of time because the efficacy of therapy depends on two things: the work of the therapist and YOUR ability to process and absorb and implement the changes that therapy brings to you.
I have come across a lot of people who seem to think that therapy is a passive process, that the therapist does the work and eventually they are magically fixed. With this mindset it is possible to believe that more, intensive therapy will make the fix happen faster, but it just doesn't work that way. Therapy takes time. Your therapist doesn't fix you, YOU fix youself--your therapist is a guide, and sometimes a teacher, but she cannot fix what is wrong with you...only YOU can do that.
So I would suggest that you slow down and focus intently on each of your therapy sessions; ask your therapist what you can do outside of sessions to help yourself.
You experienced a typically neglectful narcissistic mother and you were literally abandoned by her. This affects our sense of self-worth. The things you describe are gaslight and triangulation and outright lying coupled with neglect and abandonment.
The best thing I can recommend is that you speak to your therapist about exercises act activities you can do to improve your self-esteem and begin to calm the chaos in your psyche (which reflects in an unmanageable life). Here is my suggestion:
Go to the first 46 entries in this blog and randomly read a few. These are true experiences from my life. Note how each one is focussed on a specific event and the details about the event. Using this as a model, choose an incident from your childhood and write 2 or more pages (MSWord pages) about it. Try to focus ONLY on that incident. If you think of another incident, write brief note about it on a sheet of paper so you can write about that incident later. Try to discipline yourself to focus ONLY on that incident. This gives you practice in shutting out distractions and focusing your mind--an absolute essential in learning the skills to tame an unmanageable life. You can write as much as you want. Some of mine are only two or three pages long--some as much as twelve. Don't stop when you start feeling tense or fearful or tearful--keep writing and FEEL those emotions. Write down how it is affecting you, how you feel. Push through the tears and anger, and write until the topic is exhausted. Then write another one on another topic or experience. I wrote nearly one per day until I just ran out of subjects.
Re-read what you write. Each story you write purges some of the negativity from you and each time you read it, it purges you further. If one of these topics you wish to discuss with your therapist but can't seem to bring it up, print out the story and give it to her. Express yourself honestly in these writing, your rage, your hurt, your resentment--get it OUT of you. Coupled with a therapist and some patience, you should find yourself looking back and viewing with wonder how far you have come in a much shorter time than you can imagine!
Hugs to you!
Violet
I am so glad that you exposed these horrible people. Providing paid counseling sessions without training or license can most certainly be dangerous. People who are this vulnerable are often suicidal--it's not a game.
ReplyDeleteI wish she were in the U.S. because I would have her arrested for practicing without a license.
I also have advanced degrees in biopsychology (I am not a clinical psychologist) but I am well versed in many areas of the field. Indeed, N's both can be and are violent. To cast N's in such a black and white manner shows her lack of knowledge of this disorder. People are too complex to put in neat little boxes such as that.
Good on you, Violet, for exposing these frauds. My real hope, though, is that Tracy and her hooligan thugs will not kill anyone with their abusive behavior.
It's always so ironic when a N starts a sight on N's. They can't see it in themselves--which is why it is so hard to treat. You have to be able to recognize there is a problem in order to treat it.
How I agree with that last sentence! Unfortunately, the only people who recognize that an N is an N are her victims, not the Ns themselves.
DeleteI keep thinking that there has to be some kind of law in Ireland this witch is breaking with her EFT business...but I also suspect that if she finds success as an author on the topic, she'll throttle back those things that don't return as much funds: the EFT rewards are pretty much limited to the amount of time she has to dedicate to it (although she sells books and videos on doing it yourself--stupid to buy since you can get all that free via Google!).
I guess this is a case where we have to trust karma because there doesn't seem any way to drag her out of the loophole she's currently inhabiting. I expect I'll feel a very satisfying (if a bit guilt-inducing) sense of shadenfreud when she finally gets her just desserts.
Hugs and thanks for your comment,
Violet
Thank you for this blog. I posted here some time ago, and felt tremendous relief sharing similar stories.
ReplyDeleteI've been successfully NC from my FOO for 5 years now. The last straw was when my daughter was born, and my NM was ridiculously full blown abusive to my daughter. I couldnt beleive it. That was not her MO at all, as she hides behind hidden assaults, but anyway, I was happy to go NC. Life has been blissful with out her in it to sabotage my family.
Since going NC, my father has fallen ill. They are playing the death card, but I dont beleive that his closed to dying, he has another five years to live he says. My father is a complete and total sycophant, and maybe he is a N himself. He never outright attacked me like my mother did, (other then by standing by and watching) until I went NC, and he would go into tirades, spitting at me, demanding that I come visit.
In fact, the communication for the past five years, (well, they write, I ignore) is just plain disgusting. Either its my mother writing one her manipulative letters trying to get me to respond, or my father is spitting at me about some nonsense I dont care about. Like they will invite me somewhere, then I dont respond, and they send a spitting email about my absence.
Well, the correspondence is getting worse. Usually my mom does the talking or writing, but in recent times, she must have figured that she infuses us with more negative emotions than dad, and probably will not invoke the response she wants. So now, she is really using my dad. They are playing the death card, and demanding a visit from the grand children before dad dies.
Dad had every opportunity to have a relationship with his grand kids, but he wasnt "allowed" to do so on his own. My toxic mother always must be present, and she alienates everyone, which is why they are both so isolated.
I dont know what it is about Ns and death, that they think just becuase they are dying, we are somehow obligated to come see them.
I am not falling for it. I just hate getting the boundary violating request during the holidays. Its so annoying.
Well, I'm glad you are not falling for it. Try to see the situation from the eyes of your children: some sick old guy who is their grandfather...but who has never bothered to make any efforts to actually BE a grandfather to them...is now "demanding" to see them. Just what a couple of kids really want for Christmas: to be forced into the presence of a sick old man who doesn't give a damn about them, so that he and his wife can dump on their mother.
DeleteYou know why they are doing this on the holidays, don't you? Because everyone else is having "family gatherings" and they are not. It makes them look bad. That you and the children won't come to see your "dying" father makes them look even worse. It is all about THEM and how they look to others, others whose opinions matter to them.
Do what is best for your kids. The Christmases they have now will be with them for the rest of their lives...give them memories they will cherish, not cringe from.
Hugs
Violet
I am sorry to hear so many people had bad experiences with DONM and its founder.
ReplyDeleteIn my quest for understanding I had stumbled upon the site - for me the site itself had the benefit of having a lot of information that was already present elsewhere on the internet conveniently grouped all in one place. However what made me pause was Danu Morrigan's tone whenever she spoke of her own experiences which had a strong emotional charge and signaled she was still up high in her recovery and in no place to be "counseling" other people.
The info you shared on the site has confirmed my gutt feeling. Thank you!!
Thanks for writing.
DeleteYou should also be aware that the information on that site cannot be trusted because much of it is slanted in a way that supports Danu's and Light's personal beliefs (as opposed to clinical reality). For example, Light has published on the site that if your NM is physically violent with you, she is not an N and you don't belong on the site. Unfortunately, when a real psychologist tried to correct her, Light banned the psychologist!
Also, a lot of the articles on the site were copied from other sites and, in many cases, altered to reflect Light's and Danu's beliefs. At least that is how it was when I was a member 3 years ago--and much of the stuff was copied from Joanna Ashmun's site (you can Google her for a link...her site is VERY good and VERY comprehensive).
You may be correct that Danu (real name: Tracy Culleton) is still high up in her recovery, but personally, I think the woman is an N herself. Either way, you are correct: she is in no place to be counselling other people.
Happy to have been of service to you, and I hope your own recovery is well underway.
Hugs,
Violet
First I would like to commend you on your blog and all the self work you have done. Second, I would like to recommend you read Borderline Mothers because BPD often goes hand in hand with NPD. You may find it enlightening, as well. Thirdly, I would like to say that I have personally found EFT a very powerful and useful technique in my own life, dealing with ups and downs and my own NM. Please don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Xoxo
ReplyDeleteFirst, thank you. Second, I will give the book a look-see and if I find it of value, I'll add it to the recommended reading list...and thank you again.
DeleteThird, I have done quite a bit of on-line research on EFT and to date (I did some updated research in December) there are no--none, zip, zero, nada--bona fide, arm's length studies that indicate any kind of efficacy whatsoever. Any benefit people feel they get from EFT is therefore considered to be the result of the placebo effect. This is not necessarily a bad thing, since the placebo effect gives the same result as if it really did have an empirical effect, which basically means that if you really believe and expect it to work, it will. Conversely, however, if you do not believe or do not expect it to work, it won't. Truly efficacious therapies do not depend on your personal beliefs to work, however: an antibiotic shot is going to kill bacteria whether you believe in it or not.
I do not advocate unproven therapies to people in pain (emotional or otherwise) and I never, ever recommend that people in emotional pain put their well-being in the hands of people who are not trained in psychology or psychiatry. And the leading advocates of EFT also recommend against using it for "deep seated" emotional difficulties. Those should always be handled by trained, credentialled therapists, and preferably therapists who have specific training and experience in the the type of emotional pain the patient is suffering. I have spoken with one women who did EFT with a practitioner and had a horribly negative reaction to the memories she called up and the practitioner was not competent to assist with the crisis she precipitated. It was a terribly traumatic experience for the woman and set her recovery back substantially, making her fearful of doing any further work of any kind for an extended period of time.
There is a reason that therapists must complete a certain curriculum and be examined and licensed, and part of that training includes handling crises. There are no short cuts to emotional health, much as we would like to think so, and trendy New Age modalities such as EFT are unproven and the practitioner untrained for handling an emotional meltdown brought on by their probing. I feel that if YOU get something helpful out of it through the placebo effect, then you are benefitting. But I also think that recommending it to others, especially others whose emotional fragility may be unknown to you, could have tragic results.
Thank you for writing.
Cheers,
Violet
I understand your point. But I also feel that being so vehement in your opinion of it and connecting your whole unpleasant experience with the website and its figurehead is a touch, well, subjective. I have personally worked with two licensed therapists who use EFT among other techniques that are better known and currently recognized. Were I you, I would make a disclaimer that you personally do not believe in it-like many people do not believe in acupuncture, for example-but that it has been known to be used by other people, and, of course, it has to be done under supervision of a qualified professional.
ReplyDeleteBut I think it's somewhat shortsighted to completely discard the whole field and technique, especially because it is so available and doesn't cost anything, and can benefit many. Yes, it can precipitate emotional releases and reactions, but so can massage. If anything, your story of your friend's negative experience goes to show that it does more than just placebo effect, as well.
FYI, I am in no way affiliated with EFT or the website you wrote about. When I first started using EFT on my own I felt like an idiot. After a while I realized that strangely enough it did work. I had some very powerful and jarring experiences when I found myself weeping within seconds of tapping and speaking certain things out loud. Anyway, I followed up on it with some sessions which made part of my therapy.
Anyway, I also found a lot of success with flower essences.
All I saying is: you have an audience. You are right to warn them about bad people who seek to exploit others who need healing. But I would be careful not to be too judgmental and keep them away from potential avenues of healing, especially when they are right there at their fingertips and could make a difference, placebo effect or not.
Good luck and thanks for your work.
Actually, it's not subjective at all. I am always on the lookout for things that help and when I first heard of EFT I researched it. This was months before my unpleasant experience with the website in question and, in fact, was the first crack in that website's shell.
DeleteI used to work in biotech and later, after I retired, took a part time job with a dietician. Both jobs required me to do considerable research on a variety of medically-linked topics. I am VERY familiar with PubMed, the NIH, and other sites on which you can research peer-reviewed journals for studies on various topics. There was NOTHING in the literature regarding EFT---not ONE article. This told me that it not only was an unstudied modality, it also told me that the claims for its efficacy were bogus--without peer-reviewed studies you simply cannot legitimately make such claims.
Via Google I came across just one study with respect to EFT. I investigated that study: it was not conducted according to normal study protocols, it was not an arm's-length study because the EFT practitioners who commissioned the study had a hand in collecting and correlating the data and in the study outcome. This is improper and the results of the study are invalid as a result. I did another search of the literature in December and have not found any new, properly conducted peer-reviewed studies that attest to its efficacy. My conclusion, based on the lack of bona fide supporting data, is that it is bunk.
The fact that a few therapists you know of us this does not mean it works. It means that a)the therapists have found a way to relax and focus SOME of their clients---they could achieve the same result with meditation, massage, or even a sugar pill; b)the fact that a few therapists may use it doesn't make it a cure-all as touted, it only means that a few therapists use it instead of meditation, massage, hypnosis or sugar pills to relax their clients; and c)they are trained therapists who can handle a crisis that the relaxation and concentration might evoke. In the hands of people who are not trained in dealing with emotional crises, this can be very dangerous. Unproven modalities should never be practiced upon emotionally vulnerable people by people who do not have the training to deal with a sudden emotional crisis. It is a recipe for disaster, as the woman I noted in my previous response discovered to her grave dismay.
Each person, of course, is free to try out all of the various things available but I have a bit more of a responsibility here, in that real people...people in emotional pain...come here to read what I have to say and often to ask my advice. I cannot, in good conscience, recommend something that is unproven by conventional protocols and which I personally know has caused harm to someone. That would be grossly irresponsible of me, and even if I believed that EFT had some positive effect (which I do not, aside from the placebo effect invoked in some folks) it would STILL be irresponsible for me to recommend it simply because it IS unproven and I personally know of at least one person who has suffered grevious harm from it, and because the vast majority of practitioners are unqualified to handle a negative reaction to probing traumatic experiences on the part of clients. If EFT truly worked, the lady who suffered the bad experience would have just tapped away her anxiety and reaction...it didn't, she didn't, and the result was traumatic.
I do not consider this a potential avenue for healing because the people who practice it are not competent to deal with people in emotional distress. A person I know tried it and it not only did not work, it traumatized her. I have no intention of changing my view on it until and unless bona-fide peer-reviewed studies attesting to its efficacy are published AND its practice is confined to licensed psychologists and psychiatrists. Laymen with a few weeks of training in a relaxation technique are not qualified to probe into an emotionally vulnerable person's psyche.
Hi
ReplyDeletejust found this site. My father was a malignant overt narcissist with BPD and HPD, my mother a covert narcissist of the darkest order -she's a "christian". I believe she also has aspergers syndrome. Several months ago I googled "why do my mother and sister gang up on me" the first site I found was Light's house. I found the articles to be dead on with what I have experienced down to specific phrases that were used in our family and scenarios that were surprisingly similar to situations I experienced growing up. I literally could have written it myself! I found the same thing on danu's site. I noticed she was selling the eft products but it really didn't bother me. I am very familiar with eft and my impression was that she was selling the scripts for setup statements that worked for her. I agree that someone who has not been trained in therapeutic technique should not offer therapy however I see no problem with someone selling a solution that has worked for them as long as it is clearly labelled as such-people do it all the time. Also many people write books detailing their experiences and how they dealt with them. That does not require a degree. I am not familiar with her book or forum so I can't comment on whatever has happened there and have no interest in being involved in any type of dispute or denigration of another-justified or not. I am writing this because I am confused -you are advising people to avoid their sites/products/forums etc...Is this because you are saying it is all plagiarized? Is that your objection?
OR
Are you saying the information on their sites is inaccurate?
I have no intention of joining their forum or purchasing any of their products but I do refer to their sites regularly as a reminder that it wasn't me that was flawed and that my parents are terribly mentally ill. The info that these two sites (along with many others) provides has really resonated with me and helped me to know I am not alone and there is a real reason my life turned out the way it has. I have done a great deal of reading and research and the info on their sites does seem to be correct based on the other information I have found. I would like to know because I have never found anything that more accurately described my family and I find it somewhat disturbing that the info that I identified with so strongly is being called into question. Could you please clarify? I am writing as anynonomous because I work on the web and would prefer potential clients googling my name not know my personal family history.
Thank you,
Michelle
Part 1
DeleteThank you for writing…and I understand your reason for anonymity: many people do not want their personal business exposed on the web where any and everyone may happen across it. It is the reason I enabled anonymous posting. Your question requires some in-depth background before answering, so please excuse the length.
You asked, essentially the following: “I am writing this because I am confused -you are advising people to avoid their sites/products/forums etc...Is this because you are saying it is all plagiarized? Is that your objection? OR Are you saying the information on their sites is inaccurate?” You further go on to say “…[I] have no interest in being involved in any type of dispute or denigration of another-justified or not.”
Let’s address the latter first. There is no dispute and, in circumstances like this, I suppose denigration is in the eye of the beholder. One could conceivably say that a prosecutor was denigrating the accused, even when everything the prosecutor said was true. It depends on which side you favour and how you personally define “denigrate.” My definition, confirmed by Google, is “Criticize unfairly.” And so I suppose we then have to look at what is fair and what is not…again, that is open to one’s own interpretation. Is telling the truth of my experience and discoveries fair or unfair? I believe it is… but those “outed” by my telling my experience and their supporters may not agree. It’s very subjective, isn’t it?
Your question itself is a bit of a trap, rather like “Are you still beating your wife?” If you’ve read the material up to this point, you know that I have never said it is ALL plagiarized, nor have I said it is all inaccurate. What I have said is that you cannot trust what is written there because some of it is plagiarized, some of it is edited and massaged to mean something different from what the original author intended, and some of it is just made up and therefore inaccurate. The beauty of their scheme is in the fact that, unless you are a bona fide mental health professional, you are unable to tell where the facts leave off and the inaccuracies begin.
I learned this in a rather unpleasant way: “Light” (Michelle Ede—whose name, address and phone number can be easily learned from the web by inputting her site name into WhoIs, which is where I got it) posted an article purporting that if your mother was physically abusive, then she was not a narcissist and you, therefore, did not belong on their forum. It was a transparent attempt to get rid of a member who had posted about some physical abuse from her NM, posts Michelle deleted, but not before other members had read them, commented, and even revealed some similar experiences. For some reason, site management did not want members who experienced any physical abuse and this member’s revelations prompted them to go on a house cleaning spree.
A member of the forum, who just happened to be a highly credentialed and qualified psychologist with more than 10 years clinical experience, posted a gently worded correction to Michelle’s article and contention, saying that NPD was often comorbid with other PDs and it was entirely possible for an NM to be physically abusive. I happened to see that post but when I tried to respond to it, it had disappeared. What happened next appalled me: Michelle banned the psychologist! And, she did not correct the misinformation in her article, either.
Part 2
DeleteMost of the women in the forum trust the forum and its administration and expect to be able to communicate on the forum with the support system they develop there: they are completely unaware that you can get banned for little or no reason at all. As a result, few of them bother to exchange personal contact details, something that becomes a terrifying situation when you get banned: your support system disappears. Even worse, you have no recourse: when you are banned, you are given no reason for it and when you write back and ask, they simply do not respond. It is as if you no longer exist and, inside the forum, you have just disappeared.
Fortunately, the psychologist and I had exchanged email addresses because we had several mutual interests and experiences outside the forum (horses, Southern California, etc.). She emailed me in a panic and I said I would plead her case with the administration. For my efforts, I was also banned, and my further efforts to obtain an explanation were ignored. Subsequent to our being banned, the Terms of Use were changed to forbid the participation of mental health professionals: if you are one and you join, you have to keep silent or be banned.
How does this fit with your question? Well, the whole experience taught me a few things: first of all, I found a lot of Michelle’s articles were uncannily familiar to things written by Joanna Ashmun and, at first, I thought Ashmun had plagiarized Michelle. Then I discovered that Ashmun was deceased and realized the shoe was on the other foot (conveniently, dead people aren’t very keen on mounting Intellectual Property lawsuits). When I compared a couple of articles, I found that Michelle’s versions were subtly changed in places, leading readers to different conclusions than Ashmun clearly intended. Unfortunately, I did not have a crystal ball and did not think to copy down the two versions because this blog was not even a glimmer on the horizon of my mind: I had no idea I might later need to show those differences to others. That, however, became moot when Michelle published her article about physical abuse and NMs and a qualified mental health professional said the article was not true and, rather than correct the errors (which I later came to conclude were not errors at all but intentionally misstated) she banned the professional from the forum. Michelle is a carpenter: since when does a carpenter know more about personality disorders than a multi-degreed psychologist with years of experience?? The deception was not only intentional, it was defended by shooting the messenger who brought the truth and banning all other messengers from entering the forum.
So, am I saying it is all inaccurate? No. I am saying you (and I) cannot tell what is accurate and what is misleading, intentional or not. Is it plagiarized? Well, I don’t know anymore. A lot of it was three years ago, but I cannot say that is the case today. Tracy (Danu) and Michelle DO change things to respond to criticism on the web: Tracy’s husband is a webmaster who runs her various websites (I have found at least 10) and she had admitted that he has set up a web crawler to find all mentions of DoNM on the web, so she is certainly aware of what I write here. In July of last year I published a post and in one of the comments I made mention of an appeal for donations Tracy made on the site on a page not accessible from within the forum, but clearly accessible from those visiting the home page. This appeal for donations to the web at large was structured like one of those pathetic “starving children in Africa” appeals, effectively pimping out the women in the forum without their knowledge or consent in order to line her pockets. Interestingly, the appeal was withdrawn from the site after I published its existence, which could make me look like a liar except for the wonderful Wayback Machine internet Archive.
Part 3
DeleteYou can see my “outing” of the page here: http://narcissistschild.blogspot.com/2012/07/accusations-against-me-part-5.html?showComment=1360244080881#c3515600656943694862 and an archive of that page here: http://web.archive.org/web/20120919190958/http://daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/donation.html
So what is my objection? Only that the people who run these sites, Tracey Culleton (Danu) and Michelle Ede (Light) cannot be trusted, which means what they publish cannot be trusted either. They have, at least in the past, published as their own material taken from other websites, then altered the content to mislead readers; they have published intentionally incorrect material and refused to correct it when advised by a competent expert in the field; they have additionally undertaken to prevent further such corrections by competent experts by severely limiting the participation of such experts on the forum and with respect to published articles accessible to non-forum members. They demonstrate a singular lack of empathy or compassion for the women they ban, ignoring their pleas for an explanation, and driving at least one woman to suicidal ideation that required hospitalization.
Like you, I first found a lot of resonance in reading the articles on the site but eventually, through reading other sites, began to realize much of the work was purloined and altered. When the psychologist was banned for daring to correct a total fabrication, my eyes were opened, even before they banned me for appealing on the psychologist’s behalf. Bear in mind that this was three years ago, and in the intervening period they have had ample opportunity to read various criticisms around the web and make adjustments to the site to “prove” those criticisms wrong. That doesn’t matter, in my mind. What matters to me is that these people have no compunctions about lying and misleading, stealing and then altering other people’s work to give a false impression. I cannot trust a word they write…and it you do, it is at your own peril. Better to read and learn from Ashmun herself and many of the other excellent, original sites on the web.
Hi Violet
DeleteThank you for responding to my question. I want to be clear that I was not accusing you of "denigration" I just wanted to know if the validity of the information itself was an issue. I don't endorse plagiarism in any form. Light's house was the first site I found when I started looking for answers "Characteristics of Narcissistic mothers" was the first article I read -I just had never come across anything that described what I experienced so accurately. Once I had a name for what happened I was able to locate more info. I understand the issues you have described with the forum and agree the behavior of the admins seems unethical and borders on dangerous. I have found a great deal of info on narcissism/scapegoating online and it all seems to tell my story or something so close it's eerie. I am looking for a way to heal. I have spent my whole life trying to figure out what happened. There have only ever been a few people who believed me but they were either afraid of my parents or were not in a position to help. Narcissistic abuse is difficult to prove. The physical abuse perpetrated by both my overt N father and my covert N mother was covered up and smoothed over so effectively that when the police or child services were called-the officer or social worker usually ended up sympathizing with my poor parents for having to deal with such an awful daughter. My mother is covert and she did participate in the physical abuse but the emotional/psychological abuse was probably the most damaging. Her motto is that I was raised in a "wonderful christian home" She has apserger's and NPD. She was a COLD fish emotionally and physically and was always provoking and frustrating my overt N father who was extremely angry and volatile anyway.somehow. The situation was so complex and bizarre you probably would not even believe it. I have never even felt like a "real" person". There was always money to buy my siblings what they needed-to allow them some hobbies or to explore some interests. There was none for me. It made me wonder what was wrong with me. It was hard to watch my siblings enjoying sometimes the very things I had asked for especially when they gloated and reveled in the fact that they could have it and I could not. My sister was especially viscous and learned early on to make up lies that made me look like a bully -she would tell my parents I had hit her when I had not or she would provoke me into actually hitting her-start screaming and crying- then stand back and accept their sympathy and comfort and watch me being beaten -all the while she's smiling like a Cheshire cat. She has been a monster as long as I can remember. As an adult she has lied and manipulated-to get people she works with fired-destroyed people's property that upset her etc...
part 2
DeleteI started running away as a young teenager and telling people what was happening-of course the N's all circled the wagons and told everyone I was crazy etc... and since then my NM has been hellbent on destroying me-sabotaging me - my ability to earn income-my children and my relationship with them... She wants me dead so all evidence of what they have done will be lost. Suffice it to say I feel like a cat toy. I attract nothing but N's and have never had a stable relationship or even a safe place where I could get on my feet financially much less complete any type of educational program or training that would allow me to live above the poverty level (which is exactly what they have determined that I deserve. My NM and her lapdog princess (my sister) who by the way is a 50 yr old waitress that rents out NM's basement have basically destroyed mine and my kids lives. They deny everything and tell me to "take responsibility for my own life". I want to do that but I know how they have sabotaged me all my life -even as an adult-I have not imagined it! I don't know how I was supposed to prepare myself to be self supporting when I was denied access to anything and everything by the very people who were supposed to help me prepare for life. They not only did not help me-I could live with that. They went out of their way to ruin any opportunities I had to prepare myself. When I expressed an interest or desire or expressed myself creatively I was taunted and mocked openly. How dare I think I would ever be good at anything. I wasn't allowed to even be a real person. It goes against some deep subconscious belief they have for me to be successful and I am afraid that for most of my life I drank the koolaid-I was aware what they were doing and knew it was wrong but still felt like deep down something was innately wrong with me. I have untreated adhd and I know some of those symptoms have held me back but had I been allowed to pursue any of my creative abilities I am positive I could have had a good career and a fulfilling life. I feel I have been trapped in hell all my life- I have been struggling all this time to barely get by and now am about to lose everything and be homeless-again. I hate them and want revenge-the next minute I feel sorry for what they went through that made them the way they are. My worst fear is that I could be one of them-I recently read that children of narcissists often become a N themselves. I hope so much I am not but it seems some of the effects of a lifetime of scapegoating and adhd are similar to the symptons of N. I do not want sympathy or approval-I could care less what anyone thinks.
I want to be real-I want a life and a chance to do whatever it was I came here to do if it's not too late and I want away from them but being unable to support myself financially-having major stress related illnesses and major self doubt I am paralyzed- i don't even know where to start- can you recommend a good forum or a place where I can get the info I need to heal. I have no $$$ or ins at this time
They made sure from very early on that anything I wanted or needed except basic food shelter clothing was totally unattainable for me and seemed to delight in their ability to do so.
Thank you for responding
Michelle
Michelle, there is a very simple concept involved in healing from this sort of thing: 1) you cannot do it alone and 2) you have to stop the assaults before you have the space to start healing, and 3) you have to own your own part in it.
DeleteAs children we have no power and our NParents take advantage of that. As adults, however, we have a power we did not have in childhood: the power to say "NO" and to make it stick. Say "no" to what? Anything and everything that they do, say, or want us to believe. As long as you listen to them, whether it is to something they are saying now or something they planted years ago in your head that keeps repeating, your progress will be halted. You cannot resuscitate a drowning victim while he is still under water.
There are a lot of resources on the web and there are plenty of good books to read...if you can't afford to buy them, your library is your friend. Don't turn your nose up at self-help books because, if you cannot afford a therapist, they are your next best option. On the main page of the blog, on the right side, there is a list of recommended reading...go to the library and check one out and start reading.
As far as websites go, Joanna Ashmun (Google her name) wrote a definitive series of articles on the subject of narcissistic mothers. Kathy Krajco (again, google her) wrote an excellent ebook (free) on the subject of narcissists, not just mothers, but lovers and "friends" as well. Her insights are invaluable.
Read my blog entry on journalling and the entries on Low Contact and No Contact. Start journalling and start thinking about limiting (or even cutting off) contact with your NFamily (but don't succumb to the temptation to send them a "this is how you hurt me and now I'm leaving" letter because then they will know what you are up to and take steps to sabotage you...just fade out of their existence).
Above all, begin questioning yourself and asking "how do I contribute to this?" Because you do. You cannot reach an adult age and still be in the grips of an N family without your cooperation...YOU are doing something that keeps telling them that you are a willing victim (an unwilling victim would have cut them off long ago). No excuses, rationalizations, justifications: go to a mirror, look yourself right in the eye and finish this sentence: "I enable them to victimize me by----." Finish this sentence every day...each day with a different answer...and you will start getting insights about what YOU have to change to make your life change. THEY are not going to stop doing what they are doing, they are not going to make nice, they are never going to fix it...only YOU can do that, and if you let them know what you are up to, they will cut you off at the pass. It doesn't matter how much enabling you do, how much abuse you tolerate, how much time you are willing to wait, how many times you are willing to forgive, your payoff at the end will NOT be their recognition of what a good daughter/sister you are: no amount of submitting to abuse results in winning or earning love. If they loved you, they would not treat you this way: it is not there, you cannot squeeze blood from a stone, you cannot command love from a heart devoid of it.
This is not easy and if you don't have a therapist to fall back on, it is even harder. But if you are going too be free of them, then YOU must start changing things and you must start changing things NOW (no procrastinating!).
Best of luck to you...it is a difficult journey but I can tell you from personal experience, it is worth it.
Hugs
Violet
Thank you for this post in particular, Violet. I hope at 46 with disabilities, it is not too late. Been working hard on my health issues and changing my beliefs about myself and I am getting somewhere with it, but financially I am totally alone without my family and yet I cannot stand it anymore. I feel totally alienated and alone in life.
DeleteWell, believe me, you are not alone. There are thousands of women just like you out there...and they have websites and blogs and Facebook pages...they have written books and put up wonderful, insightful posts on the web. Google Joanna Ashmun or go to your library and check out one of the books on my recommended reading list...there is a LOT of help and camaraderie out there, but it won't find you, YOU have to find it. Before you hit the search engine, though, go back to the main page of this Blog and read the two tabs entitled "Beware these sites" so you will know what to watch out for.
DeleteBest of luck to you,
Hugs,
Violet
Thank you for writing this. I went to the DOnM forum and apparently it has been down for a while. I will not be visiting that forum after reading your page. By the way - one of the best books I've ever read about narcissism is called "Children of the Self-Absorbed." Written by a real mental health professional, not two hacks who promote a bizarre, cultish tapping cure.
ReplyDeleteI have heard of this book and have heard good things about it. It is on my list of books to get, so once I read it, I will add it to my book list if I believe it is helpful.
DeleteIf you have not already done so, you might find "People of the Lie" by M. Scott Peck of interest and value. It is basically a book about evil--and narcissism.
Thank you for reading and for your comment
Hugs
Violet
Dear Violet,
ReplyDeleteI came upon your sight as I have been searching for answers and researching my mother's mental illness. I understand now that my mother has a problem and that it is not mine...
I have also come upon the other 2 sites mentioned, but am not one to purchase self help, or even therapy type books off the internet.
I just had a strange feeling that daughters of Malignant Narcissists already have a huge battle ahead of them...
I have read many things, but feel that not all NMothers are the same. Mine was and still is very extreme, so I do hold a lot of resentment and anger towards her.
I have spent most if not all my adult life being independent of others due to my mother's lack of guidance,that I find it hard to trust easily. I do not trust sights that peddle things for gain, especially financial gain.
I also enjoy using google to look up any and everything that I need answers to....
I would just like to thank you for confirming my already suspicious thoughts on those 2 other websites! I have this sharply tuned instincts to things that are just not clear.....
I wish you all the best as I continue my struggle with my monster of a mother.....
Peace be with you...
Luscious~
Thank you for your input, Luscious.
DeleteAll NMs are different, but narcissism is not: they just manifest their narcissism in different, often uniquely creative ways. But the fundamentals of narcissism are pretty much constant.
Struggling to deal with an NM is easier when you have help and the help I most often recommend (because it helped ME so much) is finding a good therapist with experience in helping adults who were abused in childhood. Such a therapist will be able to help you find those critical insights and ways to minimize her impact much more effectively than we can do on our own.
There are many good resources on the web and I specifically recommend the work of Joanne Ashmun (google her). She is deceased now, but left a wonderful legacy of work behind that I have found invaluable.
A book I read many years ago (and re-read every so often) is Toxic Parents by Dr Susan Forward. I found it very eye-opening and helpful in dealing with my mother. Another book you might find enlightening is People of the Lie by M. Scott Peck. Both books offer a wealth of information and insights into the narcissistic parent, information and insights you may find very helpful.
Thank you again for writing, and I hope you win your struggle sooner rather than later.
Hugs
Violet
Wow. I got on her site and left after I got an email of introduction or whatever that went on and on about how my mother never cared about me at all. I know my mother cares for me but also has personality disorders and mood disorders. So that right there just seemed like a load of black and white BS. I have been involved with a few N's in my life and I can say they did care as much as they were able, but they were unable to care in a healthy reciprocal and respectful manner as their need for power and not to have to change or look at themselves comes first. But yes, I avoided that site like the plague after that Intro email. The EFT thing is not something that has ever helped me at all. Not once.
ReplyDeleteWise woman, Kaylight. I agree that some narcissists may care about another person (my NM cared very much about her younger brother, for example) but their ability to express it in a healthy way is impeded by their PD. It is important to know, however, than many (possibly the majority) do NOT care about their children or other people except as they can somehow serve the narcissist...and this is the experience of the majority of children of narcissists I have met and/or corresponded with. Some narcissists are so extreme that they actually injure their children and show no remorse: they blame someone else for it and/or rationalize and justify their behaviour.
DeleteFor all that narcissists have a litany of traits in common, they are still unique individuals. My NM had a "rescue" fantasy in which she saw "neglected" or "abused" children taken from their mothers. She was completely incapable of seeing how she was projecting because she abandoned me to adoption when I was 2 (and her parents rescued me and kept me with them for 2 years) and neglected and abused me at very same time she was accusing a neighbour of the very behaviour she, herself, was committing. This has devolved upon my daughter whose unique twist on it is to rescue animals and, after a while, come up with a reason the animal has to be put to sleep...a form of abandonment she blames on the animals: first she takes them in, then they "go crazy," then she "has to" have them put down. Each narcissist has her own personal variation on each of the common themes. So, while you have known Ns who cared but were handicapped by their disorder, there are lots and lots of other Ns out there who don't care a bit and revel in the "freedom" their disorder gives them. There are even those who KNOW they are Ns but see no reason to change: I have a friend whose NM is a psychiatrist who claims her disorder makes her a better shrink, and Sam Vaknin has created a money-making industry out of acknowledging--but not changing--his.
I agree that the EFT thing is useless...it operates on the placebo effect: if you believe it will work for you, it will. It is also something you can learn to do to yourself for free on the internet, so if you think it might work, you don't have to pay money for it. But trust someone like Tracy to NOT tell you that it operates on the placebo effect and you can do it for yourself for free--she won't make any money that way.
And, in my opinion, that is what the site is all about: making money. I don't think it was ever anything more than that, it was a niche market she found that she could exploit for financial gain and she went for it. And, because most people don't believe you when you point out an N to them, she succeeds.
I hope you believe in karma...
Hugs to you and thanks for writing,
Violet
I was completely banned once about 3 years ago and no reason was cited for kicking me out as a member. As a DONM this was destructive to me and counterproductive to my healing process. Because of this, I was unable to maintain a connection with a support group of "sisters" that had also undergone similar struggles.
ReplyDeleteMuch later, I joined the DONM site (with Danu and Light) under a new username thinking that maybe they had accidentally banned the wrong person by getting me confused with someone else under a similar username that had actually broken the site rules??? I am still not sure what really happened.
Fast forward to the most recent events, I was told in a passive-aggressive manner that I was not allowed to talk about my OWN personal experiences with religion, spirituality, or anything even closely resemebling this. For instance, "Thank God!" or even something as simple as saying the words "HP" (for Higher Power) to try to keep everyone safe and not break rules was misconstrued as being a misfit.
I have been a part of both online and face-to-face 12-step groups and even they allow someone to say "HP" because it allows for people to be real and express parts of their own journey without negatively affecting or influencing another person's decision for freedome of religion. There is no freedome of religion there; there is to be none expressed at all. I know this is just a website, but looking at it from a different perspective, can people imagine living in a country where you are not even allowed to say that you have a HP of any sort at all? Sounds like a dictatorship to me. So basically at the DONM site you are supressed from having any kind of identity that might even come close to saying that you have an HP.
Later, I was mocked for wanting to receive counseling and told that I could self-counsel on my own. Gee, I wonder why they wanted me to do that, lol. Could it be that Light and Danu both kept pushing the sale of their self-writtern books on their website? Yeah.
I have still managed to keep a few friendship that were gained from this site by using outside correspondence. That is the only thing which I can honestly say I have gained from the the Daughters of Narcisstic Mothers website. There is no love lost when it comes to the site owner and/or main moderator(s). One of my friends on the site was harassed for having stated to members what her job/profession was. She happens to be a therapist and she said supposedly it is stated in the site rules that a person is not allowed to say that they are a counselor. This kind lady got mad and left after that. Does anyone want to know why a site would want to deter counselors from being a part of their site? I will tell you my best guess. It certainly brought out a fear that people would no longer buy their books if they end up finding help with therapists independent from their own writings. I surmise that jealousy was also a component since she had credentials.
Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the whole reason for creating a website to help DONM's was to help DONM's. Guess not. It seems that it is their way or the highway. If you are not buying their crap, then you are not weak enough for them to control. Hmmm, there is much CONTROL in a dictatorship. So, here we go again. You are better off not visiting that place unless you want to be controlled, not be able to share your identity and true feelings, etc. It is NOT a place where a person can be real.
Tracy Culleton (Danu) and Michelle Ede (Light) started the site to make money. Tracy destroyed Dr. Karyl McBride's original "Will I Ever Be Good Enough" forum, started her own site and, when Dr. McBride shut down her forum, Tracy recruited the stunned members to her site. It has always been about making money to her: she tried to flog her EFT on Dr. McBride's site, was promoting it heavily on the DoNM site and when that didn't bring in the bucks, she came up with other schemes: a "donate" button so you could give her money out the the goodness of your heart; a deal with Amazon so if you bought books through her site, she got some of the money. She even put up a page aping the "starving children in Africa" meme, trying to get people to "sponsor" a DoNM!! Now she and Michelle have their books to flog.
DeleteIt has never been about healing, it has about making money. A site about healing would welcome women in various stages of healing, so they can help and mentor each other: those women who are well advanced along the healing path are tossed out like yesterday's coffee grounds. A site about healing would welcome therapists and other mental health professionals: Tracy and Michelle don't want them there because they might contradict some of the lies that are told in the "educational materials"---don't laugh, that actually happened!
So, the problem is that you, like me and thousands of other women, thought the purpose of the site was for healing when, in fact, it was a place to gather a lot of potential cash donors AND pick their brains for information that could be used in a book. I fell for it in the beginning, just like you and thousands of other women did. You and I got out alive--not everybody was that lucky...at least one member committed suicide and I know of one other who ended up in hospital under suicide watch after she was banned without warning or explanation.
It is not a healthy place to be and we are both fortunate to have gotten out in one peace.
Hugs to you,
Violet
apparently it is a standard practice for Tracy and Michelle to summarily ban people with no appeal and no explanation. The tenor of the forum is such that you walk on eggshells, never knowing what you might say that will get you expelled and, once expelled, never knowing exactly why.
ReplyDeleteYep. I'm another former DoNM forum member who was banned with no warning or explanation. Coincidentally (?) my ban also came at a very vulnerable time due to my father's death.
I stumbled across DoNM ~2 years ago and had a huge lightbulb moment - really more like an "earth shifted on its axis" moment. Unlike you, I never really knew that something was off with the way I was raised. I suspected for a while, but everything she did was so subtle, and so carefully hid from others - and she was so seemingly great with my GC sister - that I could never really point to something and say "yes, that's wrong." I was convinced that the abuse was all my fault, even though I couldn't figure out why or what I'd done; I'm the classic overachieving perfectionist.
Anyway, I discovered DoNM and it shook me to my core, completely changing my perception of my life and myself. I started seeing a therapist and went very LC with my family. DoNM really pushed going NC and I seriously considered it, but instead I talked with my GCsis about what I'd learned (something else DoNM very strongly advises against. Hmm, isolating people from their families, sound familiar?). To my relief, GCsis supported me, so I stayed in LC.
3 months later, as I was still reeling from and processing this discovery, my father died with no warning. Once again, my world was shaken. After making my discovery, I'd really hoped to sit down and talk with him about what happened, but I lived 2000 miles away and wasn't going to see him for several more months. Then, as if dealing with his death wasn't enough, NM really went above and beyond with her abuse while I was back for the funeral. I returned back home a mess. The DoNM forum was a part of what got me through this very rough time.
His birthday came about a month later. I posted several times about it on the forums, asking for support for what I knew was going to be a rough day. The morning of his birthday I log in hoping for support and - surprise! - I was banned. No warning, no explanation given, just locked out. I emailed her, sure it was a mistake, and no response. It wrecked me, at a time I was already incredibly vulnerable. To this day I haven't figured out why I was banned. I later logged back in with a new account and all my old posts were there; it was as if I'd just left on my own.
Really, only a disturbed person (such as a narcissist) could turn away someone at such a vulnerable time, and in a manner that so perfectly reflects the invalidation we've faced our whole lives. Thank you for sharing your story, both as an alternative to DoNM and as a warning to stay far away from there!
First, please allow me to apologize for being so late in responding: I only just found this comment--sometimes I am not notified of a new comment via email, even though this blog is set up for that.
DeleteI am really sorry that those witches treated you that way. I agree that the way they behave, from trying to isolate people from support outside of the forum to banning people with no compassion, to failing to respond to impassioned pleas for explanation to keeping the accounts of banned members active, all point to narcissistic behaviour on their part. Tracy and Michelle create an illusion of a robust (5000 members) forum and use that illusion to make themselves and the forum look credible: they have both written books recently and both of them need that credibility in order to launch and publicize the books. Michelle also runs "Light'sHouse," a website about narcissism, and has published a book under the pseudonym "Drew Keys." It's all a big ploy to fill their pockets with folding money and their psyches with Nsupply.
You are well to be out of there, but I am so sorry for the way you had to leave. What I and several other women have noticed is that Tracy and Michelle seem to have a profile of people they want on the forum: needy, easily led, not highly articulate or emotionally aware. My guess is that you were bounced because you missed the profile somehow: too smart, too aware, too independent-minded, too far along the healing path. It is in the site's best interest to keep women stuck in their emotional angst...did you ever notice that not much real healing goes on with the women in their? They are encouraged to wallow in their misery but not to get better. At least not when I was an active member.
You are free now, and hopefully you have found some additional resources to help you. You really got a raw deal out of these women and I hope you are healing from that as well. It sucks when the people you go to for help screw you over, but believe me, there are plenty of informative sites out there (Google Joanna Ashmun and Kathy Krajco for just a couple) and there is always good old fashioned therapy with a therapist who is experienced in helping people who were abused as children. My best wishes to you for a happier, more emotionally healthy future!
Hugs,
Violet
Mmmmmm from reading all of these experiences (so sorry for what you all have gone through and glad that I never did more than read on that site)it sounds like Michelle and Tracy are Narcissists themselves, running a DoNM site for kicks and CONTROL! Well thanks so very much Violet for the warning and I'll never set eyes on that site again. My mom was a VIOLENT Narc, she would have these horrible outbursts (temper tantrums) and it always ended with me getting my ass kicked in! How dare she say these types don't excist, ONLY and I mean ONLY a NARCISSIST would say such a thing! Anyway, I am enjoying this sight, very helpful and will soon post up my own life story but until them, Bless you all and may God continue to give us the stregnth to press onto emotional freedom :-)
ReplyDeleteYou sound outraged--and well you should! Saying that a narcissist is never physical or violent is very invalidating to those of us who grew up with a combative NM. Your experience of your NM having an outburst of temper that invariably culminated with you getting assaulted is an echo of my own childhood experience.
DeleteI further agree that to deny such behaviour as part of the narcissist's repertoire is further invalidating and anyone who says this may well be a narcissist as well. My personal suspicion is that Michelle may have engaged in some similar behaviour herself and, unable to rationalize it, denies it as being a narcissistic behaviour. Sort of like "Well, I've done this and I am not a narcissist, so that means people who do this are not narcissists." She, after all, would not own (or acknowledge) any behaviour that might make her look like a narcissist.
But the truth is, some narcissists DO engage in physical violence...not all of them, of course, and maybe not even a lot of them. It is important to keep in mind, however, that not everybody who engages in physical violence is a narcissist, either.
Please keep in touch and remember, you are never alone in this...you have thousands of "sisters" and "brothers" out there who have experiences just like yours. There are therapists and websites and Facebook groups and blogs all there to help you. Take advantage of them...and please keep in touch!
Hugs to you,
Violet
I joined DONM less than 1 month ago and I am done. I agree with many of the things said here that it is not a place to heal and anyone with helpful advice that is not going to lead to revenue for the products they are peddling will be undermined or ignored by their administrators. I was deeply wounded pretty fast finding out I don't belong there until I found this info on your blog.
ReplyDeleteWow that is exactly what happened to me at the DoNM forum. It was Thanksgiving a couple years ago and I was having a very rough time of it as I'd finally stood up to my family and announced I wasn't going to cook and all that, since I'd never gotten a word of thanks and I was just done.
ReplyDeleteI got banned that night. Thanksgiving night after a really, really rough day.
I guess it says something about where I am in this process that my first reaction to being banned was to think it was a glitch; a few years earlier I would have automatically assumed I had done something bad. But it took me a while to figure out I'd been banned.
And of course no one, not Danu and not Light, could be bothered to answer my emails me as to why. I still don't really know why, not even the pretext or cr*p excuse they might have made up. I really genuinely don't.
I'm just glad it didn't affect me as badly as it might have. A couple years earlier and it would have thrown me very, very badly.
I'd bet a big pile of money though that Danu is still using my artwork of the Goddess Danu as her avatar! :/
I have not been banned yet but all my posts are censored and my messages and emails are being ignored as to why this has happened. I read this a while ago before I was censored so I came back to say that. I am only there a few weeks too. Some of my posts where edited too a lot. I dont think I will be going back now.
ReplyDeleteI cant believe they are making money out of vulnerable woman. If you are strong and want to help others they dont want you there. You area a threat. That forum near brought me down and I am strong with threads when did I realise my mum didnt love me. I never thought she didnt. But made me wonder. I do think they have fake accounts in there stirring things up. They know Daughters are angry and have low self esteems and they play on it. They know their trust can be messed up in people and they play on that too. The site managers moderates you and ignores all your posts so no one can see you speaking and they just hope you go away. No reason for it, no explanation at all. All emails to admin ignored.
ReplyDeleteThey want to make $$$$$. But, EFT can be performed based on basic training and then alter your phrasing and daily goals according to whatever you need to accomplish. You don't need ongoing scripts from them. So, don't buy.
DeleteThere is not evidence whatsoever that EFT has any effectiveness whatsoever. It operates on the "placebo effect"--in other words, if you believe it will help you, it will, but if you don't believe, then it won't. It is pure quackery and relies entirely on your mind. Instructions how to do it are free on the internet, but if you are a believer and it therefore works for you and you access something deeply hidden in your subconscious that re-traumatizes you, and you are doing it alone or with a "practitioner" like Tracy who is NOT a psychologist, how are you going to handle this? I know someone this happened to and she was freaked out for MONTHS.
DeleteProperly trained therapists are the people to see about your emotional difficulties, not quacks with dodgy 'cure-alls.'
Thanks for this analysis, I stopped by the site you mentioned a few times but felt it was 'hard selling' me both products and their personal philosophy rather than a place to pause,analyse and share...Reading the above I'm so glad I didn't share.
ReplyDeleteOn a larger scale, I do think we have to be careful out there... I have been a regular commenter on a very popular blog site which focuses on Narcissistic relationships for some time... I recently had much more contact with the author,met her and sadly changed my opinion about both her reasons for hosting the site and indeed her self awareness into her own Narcissism.
Another poster had already discussed her fears with me about the site's core purpose...she felt the site offered continuous Narc supply to the author ? At the moment I've stopped posting there and my journey of recovery is progressing well.
Perhaps the most significant I remember about my correspondence with the author was she never actually wanted me to do well....either in my recovery nor in any of the worthy and happy events that were happening in my life?Some of her comments to me were 'passive aggressive' in nature or simply not encouraging....To think of the power these people have makes me shudder. As you say,the key is to be discriminating...our boundaries should include who we interact with/take advice from on sites/blogs too!
Your comment about the author of another site not wanting you to do well--I think that applies to the DoNM site managers as well. There really is nothing there that encourages improvement in the women who participate and that is significant. Providing a forum for people to bitch and moan is one thing, but when the same people are bitching and moaning year after year about the same thing with no improvement, what you have is a lot of people stuck in the same place and with no incentive or encouragement to move on. The forum is not there for the healing of the members, it is there for information gathering and ego-massaging of the operators.
DeleteI am not trying to pretend anything here: I am very clear that part of the reason for this blog is to explore my own feelings and experiences and to come to conclusions about them...to heal my own wounds. Input from others is very helpful for that. BUT, I went public with a very private catharsis (the 46 Memories) because I thought it would help others--I came to a place where I felt selfish keeping all of that to myself because I had read other people who had similar stories who felt all alone...and I wanted them to know they were not alone because I had been there too. And so this blog was born. The DoNM forum is for making money--this blog is for sharing.
If you read any of Tracy Culleton's other sites, you will eventually come to the conclusion that the forum is simply a niche market she discovered she could exploit for profit. If you read all of the comments on this entry you will find some links I have posted to posts from her in the Warrior Forum that reference her exploitation of this market. She is as phony as a $3 bill. I am sure there are others whose motives are less-than-pure out there, but the DoNM forum and Light's House are the only two I am intimately familiar with, so I have to rely on my readers to warn each other about exploitive sites.
You are right about boundaries and being discriminating: you can't just leap feet first into something without risking jumping from the frying pan into the fire. Even this blog gets its share of detractors, from Danu-worshippers trying to take me to task to those deeply entrenched in learned helplessness who demand rescue and deplore my own "bootstrap" approach. None of us are perfect, least of all me, but I believe that as long as we are moving in the right direction, we are better off than we were. I am gratified when people write because it tells me that I am making a difference in the world, something that has always been close to my heart. I don't care if I do it anonymously--in fact, I would just as soon NOT receive any personal recognition (that old DoNM "anonymity is safety" thing), just that my time here counts for something to somebody, that I leave the world a bit better than I found it. I have learned a lot of very hard, painful lessons in my life--wouldn't it be nice if others could learn from my mistakes and experiences and spare themselves the same pain? It's what I hope and what this blog is all about.
Thanks for writing
Hugs
Violet
Yes. In fact, the moment we begin to feel a dependency on anyone regarding leading us out of some wilderness or other, it's time to step back, reflect and get in touch with what we think about the situation. We cannot depend upon any Man, only
DeleteGod and His words in the Bible, the smartest book in the world.
I am an atheist. I do not advocate depending on "advice" written by ignorant Iron Age sheepherders. If you get comfort from it, I suppose that is OK (although, truthfully, I think it holds people back from discovering their true selves and potential), but I absolutely do NOT advocate spreading it around as a panacea.
DeleteWe must learn to depend on OURSELVES...not gods or EFT or even therapists and gurus, but ourselves. We must learn to know ourselves, control ourselves, to make ourselves happy. It is good to interact with others, to have relationships with others, but nobody is going to love you more, or take better care of you than you love and care for yourself. You set the stage, the standard for others...you must come to be the person upon whom YOU can depend and then others will respond to that.
I think part of what is a problem for DoNMs is that we continue to depend on our unreliable parents for our self-esteem, that we never developed it independent of them and their reactions/responses to us. They infantilized us emotionally, creating an environment in which we never grew out of our normal child's dependence upon parental approval (which we internalized as guidance). I think religion is simply an extension of that, where we look outside ourselves for approval and guidance when, in fact, we should be looking inside. When we are whole, when we are complete, we don't NEED outside approval, whether from parents or from invisible parents in the sky.
I do not say this to offend, only to demonstrate that emotional dependence (NOT relationships but dependence) on ANYTHING outside our selves holds us hostage to that which we are dependent upon. Only when we break free of dependence on approval from others and internalize it to become dependence of approval from ourselves are we truly free.
There are alot of phonies everywhere, and most certainly there are huge numbers of phonies (and Malignant Narcissists, too!) in the psychology-psychiatric fields. Certified? They most certainly are! In more ways than one. Psychiatry has a 23% cure rate! 23%!!! It is abominable! And many are in it for gain at the patient's expense. It pays to keep us sick. If that's not narcissistic, what is? The very definition of Malignant Narcissism. To address what you say about Danu-Tracy-I don't know about any of that. All I know is, what she writes is accurate, is true. How do I know? Cause I worked a lifetime to discover and implement these things on my own when psychology-psychiatry didn't work at all. A lifetime. What she espouses works, cause it worked for me before I ever read what she writes. That's about it. As for EFT, it works each day, for that day, and I would recommend it. Tapping on susceptible nerve fields while uttering positive affirmations couldn't hurt anybody. Nobody. As for your site, thank you. Being honest and revelatory about MN is the single most positive step. Like you, I'm a fan of M. Scott Peck's 'People of the Lie". How did I miss it 30 years ago. Oh! Well. Keep up the good work.
ReplyDeleteLet's start with "what she writes is accurate"...Tracy doesn't write the stuff on her site. Michelle and others write it. A former admin, Kate, wrote quite a bit of it but when Kate began to see the truth and wanted out of the site, Tracy banned her and took all of her articles and put someone else's name on them as author. Michelle plagiarizes other internet writers, like the deceased Joanna Ashmun, without giving attribution. I will have to qualify that statement to say that was what was going on three years ago when I researched the site--they may have either given Ashmun attribution now or taken down the articles or re-written them, I do't know. But the bottom line is 1) Tracy doesn't write that "accurate" stuff, 2) she seems to have no compunctions about publishing things under bylines other than the real, original writer, which makes her dishonest and 3) she is NOT who she says she is on the site. If you Google her real name you will find a dozen or more sites she runs and if you specifically Google her name and "Warrior Forum" you come up with some conversations she has engaged in with other people in which she is VERY clear on how she exploits the members of her site and asks for suggestions on how to financially exploit them further.
DeleteThe information she publishes is available elsewhere...by the original authors...and without the exploitave taint.
"Tapping on susceptible nerve fields while uttering positive affirmations couldn't hurt anybody."
DeleteWrong.
First of all, there is no such thing as a "susceptible nerve field." That is official-sounding gobbledegook designed to sound like it means something in order to fool people who don't know anything about real physiology.
Secondly, it works on the placebo effect, meaning it works ONLY if you believe it works. And our minds are powerful things...if you believe it works and you access something your mind has been hiding from you because you are not yet ready to deal with it, you can be re-traumatized. Tracy did this over the phone with someone I actually have spoken with--it totally freaked her out and, because she was on the West Coast of the US and Tracy was in Ireland, nothing could be done to help this woman. She went into a profound depression for MONTHS after the experience...not to mention that Tracy badgered her for a testimonial, published it under the woman's real, full name, and refused to take it down when the woman asked. (I believe it is down now, but she refused for at least a year.)
So, it CAN hurt, depending on the depth of belief of the subject and the degree of hidden emotional pain accessed. This is the kind of thing that should be done in the presence of mental health professionals just in case something goes wrong, as it did with the person noted above.
Thanks for the warning. EFT can be helpful, I have seen it help people, and it has helped me. I have a physiology degree and did all the background reading and the science of the nervous system makes sense. Anyway, I have done workshops etc, and when you learn it from people who know what they are doing you learn techniques to avoid anyone getting into a distressed state. And it must be used with good intentions. If someone has a major trauma you deal with it very gently and at an appropriate pace. So I suspect that apart from charging a lot of money, Morrigan is not even any good at EFT. Many EFT practitioners have videos about how to do it that are shared freely. Morrigan is abusing her followers and EFT as well by the sound of it
ReplyDeleteI have not read all of the posts here. I am not sure if EFT works or not. I have only tried it a few times and I was not motivated to try any more. I just know that you do not have to pay for any of if and you can get all of the information about how to do it for free on the internet. Yes there are lots of people charging for it, but if you look you can find it for free. I went to mercola.com. He sells a lot of vitamins and stuff, but he has so many helpful articles. I have been subscribing to him for more that 12 years and he has all of the EFT info free there. The subscription is free too.
ReplyDeleteFrom Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_Freedom_Techniques#Research
DeleteResearch
A 2009 review found "methodological flaws" in some research studies that had reported "small successes" for EFT and the related Tapas Acupressure Technique. The review concluded that positive results may be "attributable to well-known cognitive and behavioral techniques that are included with the energy manipulation. Psychologists and researchers should be wary of using such techniques, and make efforts to inform the public about the ill effects of therapies that advertise miraculous claims."[3]
Reception
An article in the Skeptical Inquirer argued that there is no plausible mechanism to explain how the specifics of EFT could add to its effectiveness, and they have been described as unfalsifiable and therefore pseudoscientific.[4] Evidence has not been found for the existence of meridians or other concepts involved in traditional Chinese medicine.[5]
A Delphi poll of an expert panel of psychologists rated EFT on a scale describing how discredited EFT has been in the field of psychology. On average, this panel found EFT had a score of 3.8 on a scale from 1.0 to 5.0, with 3.0 meaning "possibly discredited" and a 4.0 meaning "probably discredited."[6] A book examining pseudoscientific practices in psychology characterized EFT as one of a number of "fringe psychotherapeutic practices,"[7] and a psychiatry handbook states EFT has "all the hallmarks of pseudoscience."[8]
EFT, along with its predecessor, Thought Field Therapy, has been dismissed with warnings to avoid their use by publications such as the The Skeptic's Dictionary[9] and Quackwatch.[10]
Now, in case you discredit Wikipedia as a source, go to the site, scroll down to the references section (which correspond to the numerical annotations included above) and read those.
It is quackery...you don't have to believe it, but refusal to accept the truth doesn't make it any less true.
The DoNM website was down for a few months earlier this year. I usually check weekly, and the site has been down for at least three months this time. A notice on DoNM says it will reopen September 25th. I question if it will happen. I have found another website in the meantime, and realize how much I walked on eggshells on DoNM. Thank you so much for this site Violet. I had no idea about DoNM, but always had a feeling that I would be banned at any time. When I began posting, I was chastised for post flooding. Violet, do you think DoNM is down for good?
ReplyDeleteOne can only hope it is down for good and that woman and her poison are off the web!
DeleteI am glad you found an alternative site. Would you mind sharing the URL here? I often get requests from people for the name of a forum they can join for support, but, unfortunately haven't found something to recommend.
Just like being in a close-up relationship with a narcissist, you don't realize how much you suppress, how fragile the relationship is, and how much you give up and give in until you have had time away and time to reflect and recover.
I have heard that Tracy Culleton (Danu) and her husband have separated and since he managed her internet presence and provided her with a portal, that may be the cause of this problem. If it is down long enough, there will be plenty of members who, like you, have had enough time away from the site to find new support and to realize just how trapped and oppressed they were there. The longer it is off line, the less likely it will restart with any kind of vigour.
Best of luck to you and feel free to visit here at your leisure.
Hugs to you
Violet
Hi Violet - The website is called Out of the Fog. When I realized my mother had all the traits of npd, the DONM site was the first place I went for support. The survivors were wonderful and helpful. However, one moderator scared me. When I posted information once, she gave me a scathing reply, telling me the website was hopeful, and did I really think that normies had it so great. My thread mentioned that the person still felt the effects of her Pd parents, even though she was now an older person. I repeated what the celebrity said, and never mentioned that normies had it easy. I was shocked and hurt. Usually when that moderator spoke, everyone cowered. I was fortunate that another posyer came to my defense. I almost cried with relief.
ReplyDeleteThe kindness of the moderators on OOTF made me realize how awful the one was on DONM. As I mentioned, I was often uneasy on the DONM site. Unlike the denial with npd mother, I knew exactly what was wrong. Because I appreciated the support from the others so much, I stayed and tried to keep under the radar. When the site was down for 2 months early in the year, I noticed a definite change. That troublesome moderator was barely posting. As I mentioned, the DONM site has been down for months now. Thanks for being so kind. I love your site, and greatly appreciate the insight you provide. Btw, Light's House is still up and running.
Tracy (Danu) is in Ireland and her site originates in Ireland. Her estranged husband handled all of the technical end of her many, many sites (and some of them are down as well).
DeleteLight (Michelle Ede) is in the US. The address she gave on her site registration is in Amesbury, Massachusetts. I don't remember which portal site she is using, but it was definitely not Tracy's husband. So, it would stand to reason that she remains a web presence, even if her partner-in-crime is not.
I am glad you found the forum at OOTF helpful and particularly that the moderators are compassionate. In a site like that you should be getting help because of the moderators, not in spite of them.
Thanks much for letting me know.
Hugs,
Violet
I was never banned on DONM but I believe I came close. I expressed an opinion which was immediately dismissed by Danu or Light (don't want to say which one, I don't trust them). I sensed I was being baited, and so rather than respond I waited to see what other posters would say. They spoke up to support my position, but they all did so very gingerly and tentatively like they were all tiptoeing around so as not to incur her wrath. I didn't realize at the time just how dysfunctional the whole dynamic was. I'm glad it's closed down, because it forced me to go out and find better sources of information and support.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/ is another place.
ReplyDeleteI notice they reference Light's House.org (#2 on my "Beware of these Sites" tabs) but otherwise it seems innocuous enough at first glance.
DeleteWould you mind elaborating on why you think this site is unacceptable?
Thanks!
Hugs,
Violet
Sorry, I meant it's a good place to visit. It doesn't seem like the mods have an ulterior motive.
ReplyDeleteThanks a bunch for posting this. I really thought it was silly once it went to tapping. I've been through different programs and readings, and it all seemed fishy to me. It requested I pay to use the forum, which was a big red flag for me as most recovery forums Ive been to don't require payment. Glad to see your blog up. :)
ReplyDeleteOne line in your article jumped out at me. "I got a warning from Michelle, saying it was “too graphic” and that it might “trigger” other members."
ReplyDeleteIf hard life experiences are not welcome, then why is she involved with this?
There is nothing easy about having a NM. I got triggered a lot when I was in therapy. It's how I progressed. It's how I brought the trauma under control.
But I was under the care of an expert. This woman is not an expert. She is regurgitating information available on the Internet and scuttling testimony and accounts of those who do not please her.
She isn't a therapist. If she were a therapist, she would talk one on one in an office away from prying eyes. She is a businesswoman who is using the power of the Internet and the life experiences of others to legitimize her websites. She can't write good content, so she has found a way that others can write the content. And she is controlling it cosmetically to make it light fare. Fluffy stuff.
The only way to reclaim your life is to walk on your own two feet, not be controlled by another person.
Yup, have come across several of these kinda sites, ostensibly to help folks coping or recovering from the Narcissists in their lives. But probably due to "N's" propensity to wanna "control" everything, the sites have long since morphed into being hothouses for narcissistic System Admins and their assorted sycophants (aka, "regulars")…. becoming the very thing we're trying to avoid! And ironically the site that currently hosts Sam Vaknin, is probably the worst of the lot (http://thepsychopath.freeforums.org)!
ReplyDeleteBTW, for what it's worth, have personally come to the point that beyond attempting to understand the phenomenon (which IMHO is increasingly common in western culture), I also no longer have any more use for "demonizing" N's anymore than snakes or other natural "predators". Although my experience has now opened the door to understanding my own narcissism, and whatever my role is in "attracting" them.
I really appreciate your site and very nicely organized!
Cheers, -Mat
Hi Sweet Violet - I just wanted to let you know that the DONM website is shut down, and will not be reopening.
ReplyDeleteSorry to inform you, but the site is still open. I just checked it out.
ReplyDeleteThe site is still open but the forum, where the bulk of the abuse occurred, is closed. The following message is copied from the forum: "I am so very sorry but I will not be able to open the forum again. I have been going through major ill health these past months. As I've been working my way through my health problems I hoped that there'd be the possibility of opening the forum again once I was well. It's becoming clear that this ill health is going to be an ongoing thing however, and it is exacerbated by stress, so my doctors are urging me to simplify my life as much as possible in order to avoid stress. In light of this it's not possible for me to continue running the forum. I am so sorry for the way I have dealt with this - I don't feel I handled it at all well and I apologise for the limbo I've left you all in. In each moment I thought I'd have more information in the next moment, and the time just went on in that way. Apologies again, Danu p.s. I hope to open it soon as read-only so the information on it will not be lost. "
ReplyDeleteI believe she's been sick like I believe pigs can fly...my latest info is that she is in the process of a contentious divorce (her STBX-husband has been her IT arm and his absence from her life could be causing her technical setbacks) and that she is dealing with behavioural problems with her teen-aged son. This could all be rumour, but if it is true, then her failure to reopen the forum is explained. Also, most of her other websites are in disarray: you can get to the main page on some of them, but the links don't work properly.
I'm glad to see the forum will remain closed...that is where the bulk of the abuse originated. Now, if she will just shut the whole bloody thing down...
Thank you for posting such interesting information on the topic of NM. Thankfully your blog stopped me from wasting $20. I guess, I can say I have a NM and some other unpleasant childhood memories that I wouldn't wish upon even the worst enemies. I haven't gone to any therapies or spoke to any specialist about my past, but I was considering writing a book about my childhood as means of self-therapy. In order to preserve my sanity I taught myself at 12 to stop feeling emotions and now at 28 I am planning on doing some research on how to "turn on" those feelings again. Your blog gives hope. Thank you. Elena.
ReplyDeleteHi Sweet Violet - Exactly right. The DoNM forum is down for good, but Light's House is still operational. Thanks so much. Happy Holidays to you and yours.
ReplyDeleteHello!
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of Crazy Sites, that make money or want to take advantage of members, and the Admins have weird behaviour.
I don`t know if you still write on this blog, but I`m gonna try anyway.
I am a Survivor of an N family..lots of them, but most severely my Mother..and my father was the Enabler, but still narcisistic. Well, well.
I have been a member of various sites, and funny, I was told by some members I was in contact with, to be careful at open groups..because some of the members, stories might be triggering, and you are exposing yourself to some risks by sharing your story over the Internet.
I have found this site, PsychopathFree it is called..Forum. They have a forum, based on a book wrote by a certain guy and Admin called Peace.
They have interesting articles as in information for start. And I thought exactly like you and others, "Yay, I found a home" . ..
I mention I have been a member of previous sites, after some raw aftermats and relationships with Narcisists in my life. I survived, and thought that place was a good place to share, and remember and exchange stories with other Survivors. BAAAD Idea.
Here`s why. I have had my account at their site for 7-8 months. I posted my Story in the beginning, pretty raw, I`m not afraid of the details. O-Kay, no words from Admins, no comments. They mention on their Site, "that they have a Restrained Group of Friends..and it takes time to trust you" , dig this. I say Okay, maybe Policy.
But I have been a member of other sites, and let me tell you the Admins were WAY more involved..and intelligent and cultivated. Here on this site, topics with "Help, need support" stay for weeks ! without an "Admin" to answer !
The Support is "given" so to say still from members. I say Okay, even better, I can do the same since I have grown strong, I can share.
Dig this. After I shared some parts of my stories, and posts, and had a positive affirmation and feedback from certain members (I say certain because there were some "geniuses" who picked on my posts after "that word is wrong", or "that sentence doesn`t sound good" ! I say LOL.
Do they value the way a sentence is spoke, on a Site where not even Admins do the work ?? I have given more support to the members of that site, than the actual Admins !
And this is not the whole story !
After some few more posts, I reccomended articles, books, and I opened a thread with suggestions of which we can work and improve ourselves after this experience. Okay, LISTEN NOW.
ReplyDeleteA certain "Expert" Admin, picks on some of my story posts (to whom they never bothered even to check in the first place) saying something in my way of expressing is "completely wrong" . Maybe in her head ! I had posted My Story with raw details, with the whole purpose, of being among "people who know and get it", and if you wish I can show it to you, and there is nobody offended there.
And of course that seemed odd to me, since I had and still do maybe, members who positively reply to my threads on that site !
And then the really Ridiculous thing happened. After I replied and expressed myself that I am not a two year old, that I happen to have experience in this , and would gladly like to help others .. I GET BANNED !!
My Account had been deactivated without any explanation..LOL !
If I were in a Rawere phase of recovery, that would really get to me, but not now. They are so patethic the "Experts Admins" of that site, along with the "creator" of that site and book in the first place.. there is nothing NEW to their articles, they do not offer a practical guide, to get out of that Relationships, Abusive Families, and so on.
I DID in my posts, and they Banned me lol !!!
And then I got it, maybe that is their way of selling their books. If people believe and STAY in that constant "Poor Me" phase, they go to Peace`s Book "of Healing Recovery" LOL !
If they were for real in helping people, why they reacted in that frustrated two year old way to my posts, which brought nothing but Hope and Strength to members ?
And because I`m not scared, you can even look for my posts and threads, under the name KeppRolling91 .
Patethic Site ran by Patethic "Experts" ! And they even introduce themselves as OPEN ! And they give no explanation for Banning loool
...................................................................
I`m gonna write a book and self intitulate myself an "Expert" ! Their Admins don`t even bother to reply posts when members ask for support, but they BAN me because they don`t like "my way of experssion " lol !
Something is seriously wrong with their heads. They should be happy and learn and share, because I thought that was the whole point of a Group Site. Even their Articles, have dzillion of mistakes, and sometimes are just plain posts like "My My how bored I am today ! "
And they don`t ban those members, they Ban me lol !! I asked them, By what criteria do they select Admins ?? The whole Site is ran by a bunch of "hags" and fakes, excuse my language, who have no certified background in giving advice !
I even told them I am studying Psychology , beyond all my practical experience !
And they kepr Banning me..loool ridiculous :)
BEWARE OF PSYCHOPATHFREE people . If you want a good site to push you forward, don`t go there, you won`t get anywhere. Ad information perhaps is okay, but as Intelligence adn Support, and EMPATHY..ZERO !
I went to the site and at the bottom of the page about the book found the following disclaimer "I'm a young gay guy who loves cats and Christmas. I work with a tech company in New England, and I spend most of my free time hiking & taking bubble baths. You will find few references in this book, beyond my heart and the members who post on this forum. From the very first page, this book a joint creation of the PsychopathFree community.
Delete"On an unrelated note, I authored this book under a pseudonym because I love my quiet life. I hope you can please respect this. "
While he does not go so far as to specifically note that he is not an expert or mental health professional, this disclaimer does make it clear, at least to me, that he is not an expert of any kind.
We, as human beings, tend to take anything written and published, either in book form or on the web, authoritatively. We forget that publishing is no longer limited to the qualified who are vetted by publishers and editors...you can self-publish a book on any topic and have it sold on Amazon and self-publishing of the web is even easier. It is no longer a safe bet to assume that because it is published, it is true, accurate, or correct. Thanks to the internet and self-publishing, is has become a caveat emptor world out there, and skepticism is in order, especially if the person doing the writing has not provided bona fide credentials in the field (and that includes me). Just because a person has a website, forum, or has published a book does not mean that person is an expert (and again, that includes me).
That forum has clearly not lived up to your expectations...I belonged to a forum that was set up and operated under the name of a well-known psychologist and author and it did not live up to my expectations...so I left. It wasn't my forum, so I didn't have the power or authority to change how it operated to suit my needs or expectations and rather than try to force a change in something that belonged to someone else, I left and sought out a venue that was more compatible with my expectations. In my case, the forum was operated under the auspices of the doctor/author, but she only came onto the forum to make announcements, and the women in the forum were divided into two factions: one which wished to support others and get support for themselves, and a second one that wished to control the forum, what was published in the forum, and its members, and they used manipulation and bullying to do so. There was no admin staff and the doctor completely ignored it. So I voted with my feet and have never gone back.
That is what I am suggesting you do...give up your anger and disappointment, identify what it is you want/need in a forum and go in search of it. Admins are not authority figures or counsellors, they usually people just like you who don't have the answers either, but DO have the job of keeping a forum peaceful. Some discharge their duties compassionately, others are heavy handed...as you have sadly discovered.
I would like to suggest that you keep looking for the right fit...think of it like finding a pair of shoes: you are probably going to try on half a dozen or more before you finally find a pair that fits you well enough to keep. But you aren't going to be angry with the shoes that don't fit, are you? You may be a little disappointed because the shoes were cute and you hoped they would, but if they didn't, you won't be pissed off at them, will you? Interactions with new people are surprising like that: sometimes they are a fit and sometimes they just aren't. It's even like that when trying to find the right therapist: that there is no fit does not mean the shoes are poorly made or that the therapist is a useless idiot...it only means that it is not right for YOU...and that means you just have to keep looking until you find the one that is.
Best of luck to you and thank you for writing.
Hugs
Violet
"I would like to suggest that you keep looking for the right fit...think of it like finding a pair of shoes: you are probably going to try on half a dozen or more before you finally find a pair that fits you well enough to keep. But you aren't going to be angry with the shoes that don't fit, are you? You may be a little disappointed because the shoes were cute and you hoped they would, but if they didn't, you won't be pissed off at them, will you? Interactions with new people are surprising like that: sometimes they are a fit and sometimes they just aren't. It's even like that when trying to find the right therapist: that there is no fit does not mean the shoes are poorly made or that the therapist is a useless idiot...it only means that it is not right for YOU...and that means you just have to keep looking until you find the one that is."
ReplyDeleteTHAT! I would like to print that haha :) You said it so right!
That is exactly how it is with people I think.
The problem is, I had to deal with so many of the "wrong shoes" lately if you know what I mean.. including N family members . And it was a drag.
I was dissapointed bythat site, and for Christ`s Sake, look at the description : "young gay guy who loves cats and Christmas ..and drinks Pink wine "
Is there any place for MORE WEIRD ?? lol , than that ?
The thing that striked me, is that they on the site proclaim to have this openess, and they are far from it. And it definetly bothered me, that a certain "qualified" Admin in theyr opinion, had the nerve to Ban me, when their whole site is a Joke .
They picked on the wrong person. I have been Member of other Forums as well and groups..but Admins are people who are suppossed to be at a certain level of Education and in this case, Recovery !
Beyond, Empathy and compassion . (!)
I know what you say about Bullying by Admins, I have witnessed it myself. Good for you that you left that place. It is like you said, it wasn`t for you.
I was gonna do the same in time, but I said, heck, let`s try and work that out. I didn`t imagine their frustration were that big, that they had to invent a reason to Ban me..when they have countless of other boring articles..and the place lurks of a Passivity .
Because that is how they keep their members..want to actually move forward, evolve and make progress in your life ? BAN lol It amuses me :)
I love your Shoe Comparison. I opted for a Group, because in real life, even with close friends, you know the saying if they haven`t been through it.. I wanted to "Forgive but not Forget" you know the saying . Remember, share moving forward tips and so on .
I recently bought the book (I know) and it was an alright read (for an hour's work) of women's stories and advice. I remember it continually referring to later chapters on how to heal. I was like JESUSfuckingchrist get to it already.
ReplyDeleteAnyway eft. That was the ONLY suggestion. I was like....uhhhhhhhuh.
Anyway this whole damn thing smacks of narcissim! Nobody else?! Like, let's take some abused people who already think they're crazy and call ourselves Light and Goddess and Ego and IAmTheBestEver (oh come on, you know they should have) and then tell them they need ONLY us and nobody else and hey I have the ONLY cure and you can't correct me because I AM RIGHT AND YOU CANT ARGUE CAUSE YOURE BAAAAAAA-AAAANNNNEEED. Wah.
I'm not sure if this blog is active, but I want to Thank You! After finding so much help with Dr. McBrides book I decided to google the topic and guess what website I found first?! Yes, the one you mentioned. Thankfully, google also led me here before I made a huge mistake. Such a shame people reaching for help can be so used!
ReplyDeleteLife is TOO short to engage in ANY fighting with any other human being. all of the on this site have suffered ENOUGH !!!! Do NOT dwell on what other people are doing or NOT doing..... we have NO control over anyone else or their behaviour, and if we think we do, we ARE narcissists ourselves !!!!!! The one main component of a narcissist is to CONTROL other people.... that is their ONLY aim....... Forget about who is fighting with who and GROW UP... and stay focussed on your SELF and not on anyone else..... A CLEAR UNBIASED voice is desperately needed here to cut away the Utter CRAP that is being revealed by all this fighting....... what is more important: to WIN any argument, or simply walk away and take care of your SELF..... there really is NO choice, for those who are discerning, they will walk away, and for those who are CLOSET narcissists, they will STAY and indulge their stupid ego and fight. Stop WASTING your life on someone else. they are NOT worth it...... Only your SELF is worth it, nothing else.
ReplyDeleteI'm not entirely sure what the Anonymous message dated June 6, 2014 is trying to say, because some of it seems convoluted. Maybe that's just me? All I know for sure about the message directly above mine is that after reading it, I feel like I have been given a tongue-lashing by my MNM. I feel this way, even though the message is not directed at me, because I did not write any of the preceding posts.
DeleteI read this post and most of the comments with relief, because I was a victim of the now-defunct DONM forum in 2011, when I was at an extremely vulnerable point in my life.
I reached out to the DONM site a few days after my cousin drowned. The night before her death, my cousin and I talked on the phone for nearly an hour. During our last-ever conversation, my cousin, an RN with a BA in psychology, told me "It would explain everything" if my mother had Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
I felt so affirmed when she said that. Finally, someone from my family of origin GOT IT!
The reason my cousin and I were talking about my mother was because, about a week earlier, my mother had sent a 62-page hate letter to me, telling me everything that was ever wrong with me. My mother also sent copies of her hate letter to others in my family, including my aunt, the mother of my now-deceased cousin.
I was reeling from my mother's latest scapegoat campaign, and felt comforted when my cousin told me she thought the problem was my mother, not me. My cousin drowned the very next day. I have never been more devastated in my life.
Soon after her memorial service, I searched online for information about Narcissistic mothers. I found the DONM forum, read through the pages, and felt like I had come home. I joined the site and posted a message explaining that a couple of weeks earlier my mother had sent a long hate letter to me and sent copies to my family. I also told about my cousin drowning, less than 24 hours after she told me she thought my mother had NPD.
The next morning I logged onto DONM to see if I had any replies, only to find I had been banned! With no explanation other than a terse message saying I was "not a good fit" and “this decision is final and not open for debate."
I sent an email to Danu from my husband's account, since mine was locked out. In the subject line I wrote: "Please have MERCY & tell me WHY I was banned." I never got a reply.
I was so devastated by everything that a few days later, the day that would have been my cousin's 40th birthday, my husband took me to the emergency room because I felt like I could not manage my grief without medical help.
Although more than three years have passed and I have come a long way in my recovery, reading through this post and these comments has been healing to me. The DONM forum may be closed, but this post is still extremely valuable because this assures me that it wasn't "something inherently unacceptable about me" that caused Danu to ban me.
In my opinion, this post and the majority of these comments are NOT about fault-finding or trying to "control other people," it is about warning vulnerable, hurting people of where and how they may be additionally hurt. Even with Danu's forum no longer in existence, this post is healing to people like me, who still carry an inner wound caused by the DONM forum.
Being SHOUTED AT in CAPITAL LETTERS to GROW UP.... I believe the anonymous writer of that message probably meant well... but I do not find it helpful in the least. Being SHOUTED AT to GROW UP is a major PTSD trigger to someone like me. Those shouted words snap me right back to when I was a little girl cowering under a verbal and physical attack by my know-it-all malignant narcissist mother.
I am a 61-year-old great-grandmother. I do not appreciate being shouted at as though I were an ignorant wayward child.
Unless the house is on fire, then you may shout a warning.
Peace, Alaina
Unfortunately, the blog software doesn't give us access to boldface or italic type, or even underlining in the comments section. The only way a person can make an emphasis it to type in all caps.
DeleteI use all caps in the comments as emphasis...in place of italics. I am quite sure that is the case with Anonymous...otherwise I would not have published it.
I see. Yes , I use caps to make a point, too, not meaning to shout. It was the GROW UP word choice that struck me wrong. An old trigger. I thought Anonymous was admonishing the complainers about DONM to GROW UP and stop fussing about Danu and "Light." Sorry if I got it wrong.
ReplyDeleteWow... thanks so much for warning us against this, Violet!!
ReplyDeleteDONM was actually the FIRST site I found on the topic!!! I was thrilled to actually start to understand my evil mother, but I didn't like all the ads and books that popped up all over the website.
It doesn't make me feel comfortable to feel like I have to start paying for something when I only just started researching it. And the feeling of HAVING to pay for your healing is very disarming, especially at this point in my life when I can't afford a thing. I like to think that there are other ways of healing without having to dump all my money on this one person I don't even know. It almost seemed like a false mystical person who can lift a curse from you if only you are willing to pay thousands of dollars for it (no offense to people who genuinely do those things).
Anyway, I would have possibly gone back to it at some point (although reading your site is much more fulfilling and I'm quite happy here), so THANKS SO MUCH for this post!!!
I'm just now seeing your warning against DONMs. I used to be in their FB group, but had to leave because of all the fighting. A number of others left for the same reason. One of them PM'd me that it was too rough for her. It's not that I didn't benefit from some of the interactions with others in there (it's a huge group of women from all over the world), and I know that I was able to help a few of them myself; but the group is very poorly managed, and even a few of the many admins had issues themselves that kept spilling over into the conversations. It had so much potential to be a great place to recover, but there was abuse going on that was not controlled and it was not a comfortable place to be anymore. It's a shame because most of the participants were innocent and just looking for help and reassurance, but the loud few ruined it for the rest of us.
ReplyDeleteI was a member of this site and did benefit from talking with the other members.
DeleteI got an uncomfortable feeling with many of Light's and Danu's posts. Always felt like I had to watch what I said. Always felt like I was being sold something. The hawking of EFT came up in the most inappropriate of places.
I keep expecting to see all of the members' most deepest thoughts and feelings eventually exposed, and put into a book for profit.
Time will tell as these two expose who they really are...
They have already written books for profit that are for sale on Amazon. Light wrote "arcissists exposed: 75 Things Narcissists Don't Want You to Know" under the pseudonym Drew Keys and Danu Morrigan has a book "You're not Crazy, it's your mother"
DeleteJust wanted to say a sincere thank you for the heads up! Their site was the first one I came across once I started looking up narcissism (after very sharp, painful lightbulb moment when I realised that my mom was a narcissist, and how much it had/has affected me. I honestly had had no idea and everything fell into place one I started reading about others' stories and about NPD.)
ReplyDeleteI think, when you are in such a fragile emotional state, you are particularly vulnerable to anyone/anything you think will help and you don't necessarily have the tools to be able to discern good from bad. I would have fallen for their site hook, line and sinker had I not come across this post. So really, thank you.
Do you have any recommendation on good books, or possible online counselling? There aren't any therapists where I live so online would be my only option but it's impossible to know who is good/bad.
There is a list of books and websites on the right-hand column of this blog. The first book I recommend you read is "Toxic Parents" by Dr. Susan Forward, followed by "People of the Lie" by M. Scott Peck. From there, any of the books and websites on the list, including this blog, are good resources.
DeleteThanks Sweet Violet for your painstaking research and for allowing others to avoid further abuse at the hands of these heartless scam artists. Once you start learning about Ns, it seems they are everywhere! But the clever ones can 'walk among us' unseen. Good to arm ourselves with this kind of knowledge.
ReplyDeleteMy sister spent her whole life looking out for our NPD mother. Now she's dead at a very young age (cancer), and mum still seeks to use this to bring the attention to herself. If mum hadn't screamed her demands of sis all these years, would she still be alive? If sis hadn't always caved to mum's daily demands, would she have had time to seek medical attention before it was too late? If I had found a book like 'Toxic Parents' before now, would I have been able to help her walk away sooner?
ReplyDeleteI escaped intact - though not unscathed - and refused to be her beck and call slave. No 'tapping' required. I saw the DONM site, but the EFT plugs immediately put me on alert. I suggest offspring of parents with NPD read a few scholarly papers on the subject for insight. Not expensive 'healing'. You can't heal 'til you know the problem. Sadly, sis never got the chance.
I emailed that website asking for recommendations for an online support group as I am struggling to handle my mother and all I got was "Try Reddit. Sorry. I know it's hard." Gee. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteThe Narcissist's Child has a support group on Facebook. You can email me for more information.
DeleteI was recommended to Light's blog, lightshouse.org, by a medical doctor who thought it was very helpful. I had later found DoNM site (which I, too, thought was WAY too advert laden) Are you warning about the forums only not being helpful or the information on the blog as well? This is disturbing to me as I FINALLY found out what my mother REALLY was using Light's site. I am disturbed by what I've read here and in the comments as well but the info isn't fake is it? I am in the process of going NC with my mother finding this is scary. Coincidentally, I found THIS blog Googling No Contact and have found your information useful as well.
ReplyDeleteI see that I am really late to this old post, but I thank you for the warning! My mother's machinations have resumed after a dormant period, and in my desperation overnight while I could not sleep I almost purchased their "package." This morning calmer mind prevails, and I am so glad I found this site. Thank you thank you!
ReplyDeleteArghhh, is this the site or is this one OK?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.facebook.com/groups/405538969464208/files/
I stupidly bought the book..but skipped right past the EFT,,crock of s***!
Hey Sweet Violet, Used to be a member at the DONM forum also. Now that the forum was closed, in retrospect I agree with you, she did use us for her writing. And they do take advantage of people looking for answers to their difficulties with mothers with personality disorders. They use our desire to understand the complexities of PD's as a way to make a profit.
ReplyDeleteHello Sweet Violet,,
ReplyDeleteI was on a Facebook DONM (Or very similar site) in 2012.. there was so much 'splitting' from the owner of the site.. she was called Margaret, she lived in America, her surname was something like Trumpletrucks (probably not real). So many of us left, can be the one you are describing though?
Anyway, I would be really grateful if you could advise me on a Facebook group? I see that you mentoned one in a reply, but i cannot find it now!
I am recovering from a severe depressive episode.. thankfully i have been referred for trauma cognitive behavioural therapy, which should be starting soon.
I also want to do some inner child healing for myself.
I recently discovered 'complex post traumatic stress disorder', on the 'out of the fog'.
90% of what i read relates to me, and my history, and ongoing difficulties.
I cried when i read it... such a relief.
The psychologist i have been seeing, also agrees this is an accurate description.
So i feel relieved, even though i know i have a rocky road of recovery ahead.
Basically, i have been repeating the same script all my life, and i have an 11 year old Daughter.
My relationship and closeness with her, is so special, and I cry with relief that she shows no sign of being how i was as a child (and adult) - nervous, constant negative brainchat, self esteem in the pits, isolation from people when i am low.
I would like to join support groups, any ones you or other posters could recommend would be gratefully received.
Peace and Warm Wishes to all my Sisters x
I visited a website called FortRefugedotcom (I spelled it out like that so it won't hyperlink). I challenged some of the contradictory "wisdom" there for how to deal with a narc mom. It was clear to me that I was in an argument with a narc moderator. Even better? Although there is a character limit to the comments, my own comments today are mysteriously shorter and incomplete compared to how they appeared last night, particularly the part where I said I smelled a rat on their site. Also, if you click on a link that takes you to their recommended reading, they actually endorse that book "A Million Little Pieces," which is a book first passed off as a memoir until the dude was busted for making it up. He was famously called out by Oprah for it after she endorsed the book on her show. I don't know, guys. I just think that one's not legit at all. Proceed with caution. I could be wrong, but they don't want to hear from you unless you fully agree. That is NOT my experience with legit sites for narc parent victims. But of course, I wouldn't be surprised if they saw my comment here and removed that book from their list! Anything to make an ACoN look crazy.
ReplyDeleteP.S. I'm the Anonymous that just posted my concerns about FortRefugeDotCom. I also realize now that my very first comment to them has been deleted altogether, so now my follow-up comments make even less sense to casual readers. Yep, suspicion confirmed, in my opinion. I'm new to this stuff, though, and I didn't even know DoNM was a scam site, although the hassling to buy, buy, buy whatever they were selling was off-putting. I had no intention of buying any EFT stuff, but I had considered the book. Then I read the bad reviews on Amazon. Yikes. Thanks for the warning. We'd all do well to err on the side of caution anyway, no matter where we are on our road to healing. Thanks for your warnings and info on this site and the other one.
ReplyDeleteP.S. I didn't take their bait to email the "admins" with my concerns. Yeah, that sounds like heaps of fun for me. It's funny how I took so long to be suspicious of my mother but no one else gets the time of day! Ha! Be well and strong, all.
Hi, just come across your site after reading the "Guardian" article about Danu's site and then googling that. I too was rather put off by the quite overt advertising and am now reading around various sites. Personally I am about to go NC from my mother and am in a lot of pain. I thought for SO many years that the problem was me and still have a niggling doubt inside that it is (although my head tells me it is not). Does that make sense? I avhe been trying to love her for so long........ just a few of the worst abuses have been (a) her having a sexual relationship with my first husband - and when I eventually plucked up the courage to discuss it being told that she was doing me a favour because I could obviously not keep him happy and she didn't want me to have the pain of going through a divorce. (b) through some devious manoeuvring trying to get me to drink at my son's wedding (I am an alcoholic in recovery - five years sober); then when I didn't accuse my current husband (a complete angel) of hitting her. (This almost broke us up because again although my head told me he didn't, something inside told me that because she is my mum she should have my interests at heart); (c) my father has recently died and completely lying over the reason my brother has been left more money than me; lying that my dad had made a new will, which somehow has never turned up, (d) lying SO much constantly I am seriously considering my sanity and losing sense of reality. I have loads of support (AA, a super sponsor, an amazing counsellor - who I have just started to do some inner child healing work with). A fantastic husband and son (both of whom want nothing to do with her)........... and yet, I still feel inside that I should put her and try and get her approval over and above all these people and her support. I am not sure if anyone can help with my head. I am about to become a grandmother next month and if I wasn't I know that I would probably have killed myself this week, bust I can't put my son through that at this time. Thank you for your wonderful site.
ReplyDeleteDear Violet,
ReplyDeleteThank you for this information it is much appreciated. There was a lot of information on the DoNM site that i felt was very interesting and helpful, however the tapping stuff seemed like crap and it is pushed. I do believe in alternative therapies and there are many which are very effective, however claiming one therapy is the be all and end all (which she happens to offer) is unethical and incorrect. An ethical approach would be to encourage people on their own journey of self discovery and to say that there is much out there which is empowering and freeing.
I bought the book and am grateful for the information, unfortunately it sounds like much of it was plagiarised or stolen from people on the forum. Tracy Culleton is clearly a damaged individual and I have been on her email list for about 6 months and something has seemed a little strange, especially when she mentioned recently that it is impossible for ACoNs to heal from the abuse they received (but guess what? tapping can help) She also mentions how she still suffers and the problems she has (this is all part of predesigned mail-out where she continues to try to flog her products and services). To me she seems like someone who has not healed but still has unresolved anger and other issues, along with what I have long suspected from her is that she still has quite a lot of the fleas from her experiences and acts in narcissistic ways. Thank you for keeping this up and for the confirmation. I will be deleting her emails and her contacts.
Some of the stuff (probably plagiarised was helpful) however there is much which is damaging and harmful. Thank you for the links to other more reliable informations and blessing to you on your own journey and to all others <3
I'm almost 30, and have only just in the last couple of days come to terms with the fact that my parents are extremely Narcissistic and that my life is now completely boned because of it. I've worked myself literally into chronic physical illness because of the pressure of the groundwork they laid out in my psyche -- before even my 30th birthday, I mean, come on -- among many, many other problems that I won't go into too much detail about here.
ReplyDeleteI really just wanted to comment on the DoNM site y'all are talking about. I've now read up on most of the nasty stuff about it, and have to say that yesterday I stumbled across the site -- still going strong, and more's the pity -- and the moment I saw a thousand garbage testimonials and another ten thousand adverts on a SINGLE PAGE I could not X out fast enough.
People: the moment you see a site that's supposed to help you with your very damaging psychological problems and there's testimonials, adverts, and "BUY NOW FOR ONLY $$$$$$", TURN AROUND AND RUN IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION. It's hard when you feel so vulnerable, that you'd really really love to believe that even those kinds of "miracle programs" and such can help you -- I've also had the experience -- but you need to be careful with anything that insists you shell out money to help soothe wounds you should never have had in the first place. I'm so, so glad I clicked out of the window and skipped it in favor of sites like these now that I've learned all this crap!!
NO ONE who has been cowed by their parents, or anyone really, should feel cowed by the person who is supposed to be helping them heal from the cowing itself.
Thank you to EVERYONE who has warned others about this site: it is absolute trash, and I cannot believe it's been a thing for this long.
thanks for saving me from pain and wasted money....
ReplyDeleteIll report their link to google. Whoever are still there drop spam links and in 3 strikes they might actually completely go down on google search.
ReplyDeleteJust complaining won't expose these nasty predators. Someone said how they wished to warn others of it, well then as we're in advanced stages of recovery we must help those blinded and weak.
Is it not cool to make google of suspicious malware but it's ever worse to have narcissists abusing recovering victims!
I can see right through this page. The woman has to make a living. You don't want her to. Guess why. Yep. You know.
ReplyDeleteNobody has to make a living exploiting the pain and vulnerabilities of others. I was one of her victims and I know others who were also victimized by her.
DeleteYou are incorrect when you say I do not want her to make a living--I am more than fine with her making a living ethically. Unfortunately, she doesn't seem to know how to do that. So any speculation about me vis a vis her means of making that living are invalid since the premise you base them on is fundamentally incorrect.
The fact that a person "has to make a living" does not excuse victimizing others in order to do so. Or are you one of those "ends justifies the means" people? If so, guess what. Yup. You know.
I have not read all of this article, but i found Danu Morrigans books the best i have read on the subject of abusive mothers and also the email lists.
ReplyDeleteYou might try reading the entire article before commenting. Then again, if a lack of ethics, stolen material and soul crushing rejection by an author who is not who and what she claims to be doesn't bother you, then I suppose it doesn't matter if you read it or not.
DeleteMy mother died a few weeks ago. When I was about 6 years old my mother 'joked' to a neighbor, "When C. was first presented to me in the hospital I said, "Take it away, I don't want it!" From that day on, experienced my mother's rejection and disapproval. On my 71st birthday last year she phoned up and said, "Happy Birthday", and on her next breath exclaimed, "It was horrible when you were born!"
ReplyDeleteI grew up in a household where both parents were narcissists. My mother was emotionally damaging and would often cause my sister and to get badly beaten by my father. Sometimes we didn't know the reason. I was kicked out of their house at 18. I had asked my mother not to open my private mail. She told my father who beat me so badly that people I worked with said I should have pressed charges. I could go on and on, incident after incident.
I had the misconception that when I left home the abuse would stop. It didn't - it continued in rejection, of gaslighting the truth, denial, in their complete self-centeredness and cruelty. When I lost weight my mother would berate me, telling me I was anorexic, which I wasn't plus she did everything in her power to turn the 4 of us children against each other - especially as adults.
So now I am expected to go to her funeral by the two flying monkees (my remaining sisters), and I am trying any excuse not to go. My therapist advised that I not go and tell them "I won't go where I'm not welcome." But I see this a fuel for them to further hate me and spread gossip to other family members. On the other hand, they hate me - if I go I will be shredded. My mother's legacy continues! Have to say, Narcissists produce good masochists. UGH!
Lolol... Whatever the hell her name is or background. Some of this has been helpful and enlightening. Also shines a light on to all the haters and probably from the very "flying monkeys" or society members she speaks of. Go back to the hole you all came from. Find your own money maker and shut the hell up.
ReplyDelete