My personal suspicion is that the writer is a narcissist who
is trolling but, frankly, the question is a good one. Many of us teeter on the
horns of a dilemma with respect to engaging our NMs, many of us are still so
angry that the idea of engaging and winning is a favourite fantasy. But most of
us are also aware that giving that much time and attention to a narcissist is
exactly what the narcissist wants…she doesn’t care if the attention you give
her is negative or positive, just so long she gets it and the Nsupply it brings.
A couple of readers responded with excellent answers and it
occurred to me that the very best answers to the question of engagement would
come from you, the readers who have such a tremendous body of experience in
dealing with narcissists. So, I am going to copy the original query below,
along with the replies, and then ask you to respond in the comments section.
Your collective wisdom is greater than anything I can come up with on my own.
Anonymous
September 27, 2014 at 2:30 PM
I have a few
questions for you.
First, I have no experience with malignant narcissists. I'm not aware of any immediate or extended family member that has any personality disorder. I've just been reading a few sites that are written by others because I stumbled onto the topic and want to learn more..
You wrote "Or do we simply accept that it is the nature of these creatures to sting, bite, steal and do whatever we must to avoid being injured by them?"
One thing I've noticed in others writings is that the emphasis is on avoiding the MN. Doesn't this play into the MN's hands? Doesn't it leave the initiative to them, and puts everyone else on the defensive, and in a great deal of stress waiting for another attack?
My question is: Wouldn't it be better to gain the initiative and engage the enemy? Put them on the defensive, by pushing their buttons incessantly and without mercy? Make them avoid and fear the abused instead of the other way around? Make THEM go NC, or be destroyed.
I have a hard time understanding why going on the offensive is not discussed in any site I read. I know there could be a reason for that. It could be because I don't know enough, and there are legitimate reasons for not doing this. But as a reader, I have to ask what I consider the obvious question. Why not go on the attack. It's self defense.
First, I have no experience with malignant narcissists. I'm not aware of any immediate or extended family member that has any personality disorder. I've just been reading a few sites that are written by others because I stumbled onto the topic and want to learn more..
You wrote "Or do we simply accept that it is the nature of these creatures to sting, bite, steal and do whatever we must to avoid being injured by them?"
One thing I've noticed in others writings is that the emphasis is on avoiding the MN. Doesn't this play into the MN's hands? Doesn't it leave the initiative to them, and puts everyone else on the defensive, and in a great deal of stress waiting for another attack?
My question is: Wouldn't it be better to gain the initiative and engage the enemy? Put them on the defensive, by pushing their buttons incessantly and without mercy? Make them avoid and fear the abused instead of the other way around? Make THEM go NC, or be destroyed.
I have a hard time understanding why going on the offensive is not discussed in any site I read. I know there could be a reason for that. It could be because I don't know enough, and there are legitimate reasons for not doing this. But as a reader, I have to ask what I consider the obvious question. Why not go on the attack. It's self defense.
Sweet Violet September 29, 2014 at 3:09 AM
Why would anyone want to increase the discord and drama in their lives
when a less fraught path was available?
What you fail to realize about narcissists is that they do not respond to provocation like mentally balanced human beings, and they have few (if any) limits. I know narcissistic mothers who have mounted extensive campaigns to malign their scapegoat children and make them look crazy (or worse) and end up taking custody of the target's children away from them. I know of scapegoat daughters ending up in mental health facilities due to the lies told by their narcissistic mothers. I know of one woman who ended up in jail when her mother called the police and reported she had been beaten by her daughter and the woman's enabler husband claimed to have witnessed it.
Who, in their right mind, engages a crazy person who has no limits to the level she will sink to get her own way when cutting off contact is an available choice?
What you fail to realize about narcissists is that they do not respond to provocation like mentally balanced human beings, and they have few (if any) limits. I know narcissistic mothers who have mounted extensive campaigns to malign their scapegoat children and make them look crazy (or worse) and end up taking custody of the target's children away from them. I know of scapegoat daughters ending up in mental health facilities due to the lies told by their narcissistic mothers. I know of one woman who ended up in jail when her mother called the police and reported she had been beaten by her daughter and the woman's enabler husband claimed to have witnessed it.
Who, in their right mind, engages a crazy person who has no limits to the level she will sink to get her own way when cutting off contact is an available choice?
Anonymous September 29, 2014 at 11:52 AM
Sweet
Violet,
I am not saying to engage them on their terms. Just the opposite.
I know they're dangerous, and they don't respond like real humans do, even though I don't know this by personal experience but by reading about them..
By provocation, I mean reframing the conversation, or using other offensive tactics that actually work instead of being on constant defense. I'll give an example of what I am writing about.
Suppose for example you have a weight problem.
Suppose mommy dearest calls up. She heard of a diet that might help you. She is trying to push your buttons while appearing oh so helpful.
Respond with "Ohhh HIIIiiiii! I was just thinking about you. I have some good news! "
And then give her some good news about your life and tell her how happy that makes you feel.
Totally ignore what the beast says in reply and go on with the conversation on your terms about your good news.
And then hang up on her because a friend just showed up at your door. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, just so she thinks there is a friend at the door. Let this thing know that someone else out there is more important than they are.
Give her nothing. Except rage and fear. If rage and fear are all they understand, then I say give it to them generously, with heaping portions. Let that creature feast on it.
Is it legal to record conversations? I'm not sure where you live, and laws vary. Some states allow recording if you are party to the actual conversation. I'm in IL, and technically it's illegal (last time I checked) but it isn't prosecuted if I am a party to the conversation. If you can legally do this, then why not do it?
I'm writing about being underhanded, and maybe vicious depending on what you consider being vicious, but 100% legal. And pushing the buttons that will set them off. Poke them with a verbal stick. And let them blow up and be known as the crazy one. Bonus points if you can get a recording of it.
They are going to do what they want. If they want your kids, they will find a way to try and take them. If they want a person to be miserable and end up in a mental hospital, they will find a way, whether they are engaged (fought) or not. Am I right or wrong?
They are going to keep doing this until they are stopped. And from what I read, any fighting back is done on the MNs terms because they are reacting and responding to the MNs behavior, so no wonder it has no effect on them, or it actually feeds them. Abused fight back defensively and that leaves the initiative to the MN,
If cutting off contact is an available choice, and it actually works and doesn't provoke stalking, then I understand that. But what if that isn't a viable option, or what if they find you? From what I've read, some MNs will stalk. I personally would not want to be constantly looking over my shoulder 24/7/365.
People write about "vengeance". This isn't vengeance. It's self defense. People have the right to fight back hard when under attack. It just seems that not many have the desire. I said it seems that way, to me. But I am only in my shoes, not anothers' shoes.
Are there any men that blog about this?
I am not saying to engage them on their terms. Just the opposite.
I know they're dangerous, and they don't respond like real humans do, even though I don't know this by personal experience but by reading about them..
By provocation, I mean reframing the conversation, or using other offensive tactics that actually work instead of being on constant defense. I'll give an example of what I am writing about.
Suppose for example you have a weight problem.
Suppose mommy dearest calls up. She heard of a diet that might help you. She is trying to push your buttons while appearing oh so helpful.
Respond with "Ohhh HIIIiiiii! I was just thinking about you. I have some good news! "
And then give her some good news about your life and tell her how happy that makes you feel.
Totally ignore what the beast says in reply and go on with the conversation on your terms about your good news.
And then hang up on her because a friend just showed up at your door. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, just so she thinks there is a friend at the door. Let this thing know that someone else out there is more important than they are.
Give her nothing. Except rage and fear. If rage and fear are all they understand, then I say give it to them generously, with heaping portions. Let that creature feast on it.
Is it legal to record conversations? I'm not sure where you live, and laws vary. Some states allow recording if you are party to the actual conversation. I'm in IL, and technically it's illegal (last time I checked) but it isn't prosecuted if I am a party to the conversation. If you can legally do this, then why not do it?
I'm writing about being underhanded, and maybe vicious depending on what you consider being vicious, but 100% legal. And pushing the buttons that will set them off. Poke them with a verbal stick. And let them blow up and be known as the crazy one. Bonus points if you can get a recording of it.
They are going to do what they want. If they want your kids, they will find a way to try and take them. If they want a person to be miserable and end up in a mental hospital, they will find a way, whether they are engaged (fought) or not. Am I right or wrong?
They are going to keep doing this until they are stopped. And from what I read, any fighting back is done on the MNs terms because they are reacting and responding to the MNs behavior, so no wonder it has no effect on them, or it actually feeds them. Abused fight back defensively and that leaves the initiative to the MN,
If cutting off contact is an available choice, and it actually works and doesn't provoke stalking, then I understand that. But what if that isn't a viable option, or what if they find you? From what I've read, some MNs will stalk. I personally would not want to be constantly looking over my shoulder 24/7/365.
People write about "vengeance". This isn't vengeance. It's self defense. People have the right to fight back hard when under attack. It just seems that not many have the desire. I said it seems that way, to me. But I am only in my shoes, not anothers' shoes.
Are there any men that blog about this?
Sweet Violet September 29, 2014 at 10:41 PM
I still don't understand why anyone would choose to engage a narcissist
and bring all that drama or why anyone would even advocate it. Yes, some of
them will stalk, but most of them, if denied Nsupply long enough (and engaging
them gives them Nsupply) will go to greener pastures. Since we who were raised
by narcissists know that there is no possible way to change the narcissist's
behaviour and belief, and the only way you can "win" is to get that
narcissist to change, what is the point? All you do is make your own life more
disrupted than it already is, make the narcissist the focal point of your life,
and encourage her...counterproductive, if you ask me.
Venus September 29, 2014 at 1:26 PM
So true,
Violet. Narcissists LOVE the drama, love the challenge, and are all about it
being a bloody competition. ...which they must win at all costs.. :-(
It's a foolish thing to take one on, thinking you can beat them, because they are usually already doing things you could never have anticipated and it's usually something where YOU will cop all the blame, and wish afterwards with all your heart, you'd not allowed the narc back into your life, or worse, thought you could beat them at their own game.
As Violet pointed out, narcs have NO limits. You can never really anticipate their next monstrous step, and often what they are ALREADY doing....meaning, they are already setting you up. They've already out maneuvered you (and sabotaged you), before you've even started.
All it does is excite them. They feed on it. My NM loved to be challenged, and where a normal person would be in tears and stressed out by being confronted, my NM would go cold and deadly calm and verbally cut her 'opponent' down until she'd break them (I'd seen her do that with many people over the years), then privately set about her future revenge. And revenge with a narc doesn't stop, until they are sated. And sometimes, that may be a lifelong campaign against the other person. (momentarily interrupted, if the other person is of use to them in opposing some new opponent).
I don't think narcs are ever satiated. And that's what makes them so dangerous.
Opposing a narc, only excites them. It's like trying to put out a fire with gasoline.
That's just my experience.
It's a foolish thing to take one on, thinking you can beat them, because they are usually already doing things you could never have anticipated and it's usually something where YOU will cop all the blame, and wish afterwards with all your heart, you'd not allowed the narc back into your life, or worse, thought you could beat them at their own game.
As Violet pointed out, narcs have NO limits. You can never really anticipate their next monstrous step, and often what they are ALREADY doing....meaning, they are already setting you up. They've already out maneuvered you (and sabotaged you), before you've even started.
All it does is excite them. They feed on it. My NM loved to be challenged, and where a normal person would be in tears and stressed out by being confronted, my NM would go cold and deadly calm and verbally cut her 'opponent' down until she'd break them (I'd seen her do that with many people over the years), then privately set about her future revenge. And revenge with a narc doesn't stop, until they are sated. And sometimes, that may be a lifelong campaign against the other person. (momentarily interrupted, if the other person is of use to them in opposing some new opponent).
I don't think narcs are ever satiated. And that's what makes them so dangerous.
Opposing a narc, only excites them. It's like trying to put out a fire with gasoline.
That's just my experience.
Anonymous2 September 29, 2014 at 11:38 PM
The
following is from a reader who was unable to get her comment to post, so she
sent it to me via email and asked me to post it for her.
Oh, yes, wow, I like the idea of going on the offensive against my narcissist mom and enabler/co-narcissist dad. I used to quite enjoy baiting my mother just as she had baited me for years, into revealing her own lies or contradictions and then slamming her with it to her face to where she COULD NOT deny/excuse/smokescreen/etc. She'd be in a momentary state of shock, cornered, helpless, and it was DEE-licious for me. I would not drool and smack my lips, though, no no. I just enjoyed the effect and then, like she would do after slicing my heart to bits, just continue on as if nothing was happening, just pick up the conversation from a nearby spot and move on, la ti da, kind of what you'd call cat-and-mousing her. It was useful to see that I could outsmart her on that level, at least. And she's pretty freaking smart, with so many more years of practice at tricky-talk.
Like so many of us learn though, that kind of engagement probably just escalates a war that can never be won. But they were invaluable moments in my life where the lies had been stripped away and there we were: mother and daughter, stabbing each other until one knocks the other one's sword down and sticks the point of her sword to the skin of the other. In my mind, that's what I felt like, and I thought along the lines of, "I could run you through right now, and we both know it, so we leave this battle knowing that I spared your life."
I did that several times over in a few years' time. It probably made her more guarded, more offended at me, even more alluring a target for her to aim at, and no doubt, NO DOUBT, caused her to attack me more viciously behind my back. Knowing what I know now, chances are she described those conversations where I nailed her, but changed who said what to whom. She is a classic case in that regard: always taking credit for what good I've done, and trashing me for crappy things SHE'S done or said to or about others (meaning my siblings and in laws). I've heard that directly and voluntarily from two siblings, and seen it in the private email between her and another sibling (I was "cleaning" my mother's jammed-up computer for her while she was in the room with me... can't tell you how long I was waiting for a chance at that job... JUST to see if I could find something in writing, and I did. Just once, just one crack at her computer... pay dirt. Painful, but, the real truth, in black and white.) And, one sister in law copied a letter my mother wrote to her son, my nephew and junior by twenty years, where my mother arbitrarily brought my name forward to bash me; I begged that sister in law to help me keep my sanity by giving me a hard copy of that letter, on the promise that I would never, ever shove it in my mom's face. That SIL never really liked me, but, this she did give to me. Seeing it in black and white was powerful, but possessing it in black and white is long-term NOT FORGETTING.
Anyway, the point is, I'm so glad I had those moments of going on the offensive and gaining the victory of seeing her squirm with her unveiled lies, and of the achievement of cornering HER; and, I can't really tell you or myself if it made my LIFE any happier. It helped me put the period at the end of the sentence though. It's hard to CATCH this woman, and I did, many times while I had to be in her vicinity anyway, and it informed my continued healing: she was really, really lying, and bad-mouthing me, and I got her to paint herself into the corner and reveal herself. I certainly could no longer go on trying to fool myself whether she was trashing me to others or not. That's a passage, progress, as long as I REMEMBER it. That's the thing: we have to keep remembering every day: this is what she is and this is why I must keep saying NO to her being in my life.
I want to be happy.
Oh, yes, wow, I like the idea of going on the offensive against my narcissist mom and enabler/co-narcissist dad. I used to quite enjoy baiting my mother just as she had baited me for years, into revealing her own lies or contradictions and then slamming her with it to her face to where she COULD NOT deny/excuse/smokescreen/etc. She'd be in a momentary state of shock, cornered, helpless, and it was DEE-licious for me. I would not drool and smack my lips, though, no no. I just enjoyed the effect and then, like she would do after slicing my heart to bits, just continue on as if nothing was happening, just pick up the conversation from a nearby spot and move on, la ti da, kind of what you'd call cat-and-mousing her. It was useful to see that I could outsmart her on that level, at least. And she's pretty freaking smart, with so many more years of practice at tricky-talk.
Like so many of us learn though, that kind of engagement probably just escalates a war that can never be won. But they were invaluable moments in my life where the lies had been stripped away and there we were: mother and daughter, stabbing each other until one knocks the other one's sword down and sticks the point of her sword to the skin of the other. In my mind, that's what I felt like, and I thought along the lines of, "I could run you through right now, and we both know it, so we leave this battle knowing that I spared your life."
I did that several times over in a few years' time. It probably made her more guarded, more offended at me, even more alluring a target for her to aim at, and no doubt, NO DOUBT, caused her to attack me more viciously behind my back. Knowing what I know now, chances are she described those conversations where I nailed her, but changed who said what to whom. She is a classic case in that regard: always taking credit for what good I've done, and trashing me for crappy things SHE'S done or said to or about others (meaning my siblings and in laws). I've heard that directly and voluntarily from two siblings, and seen it in the private email between her and another sibling (I was "cleaning" my mother's jammed-up computer for her while she was in the room with me... can't tell you how long I was waiting for a chance at that job... JUST to see if I could find something in writing, and I did. Just once, just one crack at her computer... pay dirt. Painful, but, the real truth, in black and white.) And, one sister in law copied a letter my mother wrote to her son, my nephew and junior by twenty years, where my mother arbitrarily brought my name forward to bash me; I begged that sister in law to help me keep my sanity by giving me a hard copy of that letter, on the promise that I would never, ever shove it in my mom's face. That SIL never really liked me, but, this she did give to me. Seeing it in black and white was powerful, but possessing it in black and white is long-term NOT FORGETTING.
Anyway, the point is, I'm so glad I had those moments of going on the offensive and gaining the victory of seeing her squirm with her unveiled lies, and of the achievement of cornering HER; and, I can't really tell you or myself if it made my LIFE any happier. It helped me put the period at the end of the sentence though. It's hard to CATCH this woman, and I did, many times while I had to be in her vicinity anyway, and it informed my continued healing: she was really, really lying, and bad-mouthing me, and I got her to paint herself into the corner and reveal herself. I certainly could no longer go on trying to fool myself whether she was trashing me to others or not. That's a passage, progress, as long as I REMEMBER it. That's the thing: we have to keep remembering every day: this is what she is and this is why I must keep saying NO to her being in my life.
I want to be happy.
~~~~~~~~~~
So…what would you like to say to this person who seems to think that our best option is not to walk away from the drama but to engage and escalate it? Please comment below.